Recovery Frame Question

[1212headkick]

Re: Recovery Frame Question

The place where balance should be inspired from should come directly from the sport. We need to be able to say "OK I agree with that because that happens in real life"

[Phillyboi207]

Re: Recovery Frame Question

The place where balance should be inspired from should come directly from the sport. We need to be able to say "OK I agree with that because that happens in real life"

The problem not everyone wants the game to based on real life. Even Counter Puncher admits he liked the game more when it was bobble head mania. I’m sure his 85-15 record had something to do with that.

Even the OP of this thread is talking about slips not being effective when that’s blatantly not true if you’re good at them(and the foundation for their mechanics are rooted in realism).

So even a lot of so called advocates for sim will argue against realistic changes if it helps their preferred playstyle.

[Counter Punch]

Re: Recovery Frame Question

The place where balance should be inspired from should come directly from the sport. We need to be able to say "OK I agree with that because that happens in real life"

Exactly. Limitations are what inspires creativity. If you sit down in front of a piano, and start mashing keys, the odds of you making a beautiful piece of music are slim. But if you limit yourself to a scale of 7 notes (C Major) you can produce most of the hit pop songs of the last 60 years.

Realism should always be the guide/limitation. Otherwise we get lost in the arbitrary.

[ApexGamerChannel]

Re: Recovery Frame Question

THIS THIS THIS THIS THIS THIS THIS....

The “top” players have always had a disproportionate influence in the balancing of the game post launch. These guys literally got to play a major role in shaping the direction of the gameplay for the first 5 or 6 months after the release of UFC 3. Then they turn around and throw it in your face every chance they get.

“I literally complained anytime something happened that I didnt want to adapt to until they changed it, now I don’t lose anymore”. Well no ****. The game was LITERALLY built around your strengths and playstyle. You better be in the top 20.

Meanwhile before patches 1.03 and 1.04, I went 80-15 on WiFi half drunk and stoned out of my mind the whole time, and then got so frustrated with the dramatic changes that were made to the game that I just didn’t have the motivation to “git gud”. I’ve watched plenty of ESFL fights and “high level” gameplay, and it’s so unbelievably off putting to watch. I understand that you guys have a different opinion. That’s fine. I don’t use Not being good at something as an argument for why something should be different. It’s just as invalid for you guys to say because you’re in the top 10 that you know best whether or not a change would make the game more fun for someone else.

You guys talk about “balance” as though it exists completely outside of the context of your play styles, which are pretty indistinguishable from each other at the “highest level”.

It’s not that we can’t “git gud”, it’s that we don’t want to given the current mechanics of the game. That’s entirely reasonable, and the big leaguing that takes place around here as a total substitution for an argument gets completely out of control. Saying something is “balanced” doesn’t make it balanced. And anytime I actually see any of these guys try to make a fleshed our argument about why they think something is balanced, they fall flat on their face. That’s when the big leaguing starts. It never fails.

[emoji1547][emoji1547][emoji1547][emoji1547][emoji1547]
only facts but the people that have their gods on a pedestal are going to hide between other men’s in game success not there own and tell everyone else to git gud instead of rationally considering the fact that the game is imperfect and feedback cams come for anyone.

Nothing I ever suggest is because I want an advantage it’s all to achieve a better for everyone.




Sent from my iPhone using Operation Sports

[1212headkick]

Re: Recovery Frame Question

[emoji1547][emoji1547][emoji1547][emoji1547][emoji1547]
only facts but the people that have their gods on a pedestal are going to hide between other men’s in game success not there own and tell everyone else to git gud instead of rationally considering the fact that the game is imperfect and feedback cams come for anyone.

Nothing I ever suggest is because I want an advantage it’s all to achieve a better for everyone.




Sent from my iPhone using Operation Sports

small fact apex ran a very good youtube during the games life cycle. And wasnt bad af the game either. But on topic. The more you create video gamey mechanics instead of using what mechanically makes mma the less you will see people want to play. Mma isn't sport that you can just turn into an arcade game. Noone just sits there trying to block break you the entire fight irl. The game is more suited Torqards the pressure fighter. We have block counters for gooks that require specific timing which is realistic. Why can't we party and fire back when people spam the jab? What idea of balance are we going for? Mma inspired balance or mortal kombat?

[1212headkick]

Re: Recovery Frame Question

The problem not everyone wants the game to based on real life. Even Counter Puncher admits he liked the game more when it was bobble head mania. I’m sure his 85-15 record had something to do with that.

Even the OP of this thread is talking about slips not being effective when that’s blatantly not true if you’re good at them(and the foundation for their mechanics are rooted in realism).

So even a lot of so called advocates for sim will argue against realistic changes if it helps their preferred playstyle.

Very true. When I recommended a shuffle step that would help both fighters and function similar to the stiff arm retreat the game changers said that it wouldn't be balanced. I highly disagree as then the shuffle step would be about getting someones footwork patterns down instead of just plain old footsies. I dont think counter punch wants bobblehwad mania. Thats a misinterpretation on your part. What he's saying is the jab is too fast to counter on reaction and the tools available simply aren't enough to deal with it.


There shouldn't be as great a stamina tax as there is on head movement yet people can fire off 150 strikes a round on your block because the jab is overpowered in the sense that its too fast. I'm all for a strong jab that intercepts predictable opponents. I'm not all for how the sole goal at a high level is to break your block and pressure or you lose. Because in this game the only thing that matters is the knockout. Alot of the people who complained about the bobblehead meta were the same players complaining about balance because the game out grew their cheesey bull**** style and they could be countered. I never abused the duck uppercut. I fight sim unless you play like an absolute muppet. The problem is the jab should have the same counter windows as the hooks and uppercurs. That would be a great way to buff head movement and not drastically change stopping power.

[Phillyboi207]

Re: Recovery Frame Question

small fact apex ran a very good youtube during the games life cycle. And wasnt bad af the game either. But on topic. The more you create video gamey mechanics instead of using what mechanically makes mma the less you will see people want to play. Mma isn't sport that you can just turn into an arcade game. Noone just sits there trying to block break you the entire fight irl. The game is more suited Torqards the pressure fighter. We have block counters for gooks that require specific timing which is realistic. Why can't we party and fire back when people spam the jab? What idea of balance are we going for? Mma inspired balance or mortal kombat?

What aspects of the gameplay currently are too unrealistic and how would you fix them?

[1212headkick]

Re: Recovery Frame Question

What aspects of the gameplay currently are too unrealistic and how would you fix them?

1. Body shot speed counter opportunities and damage. The body shot is useless unless their short term stamina is low. Its also got unrealistic recovery frames and it is way too unsafe on block. If I whiff a body hook you have the potential to be rewarded with a free rolling thunder every single time. Simply blocking a body hook guarantees you a free straight punch like a body kick does even though a body hook is suppose to be the faster strike. People complained because they failed to respect their opponent down low and cried and got their way. They only have .2 stopping power while the knee has .7 hence the knee spam. This is disingenuous and purely video game mechanics. A iab can interrupt your body hooks. Very easy to do since there's no threat of really being stopped if your goal is body work.


My fix: drastically decrease tax for fwd moving body shots reduce recovery frames and drastically increase the stopping power of a body shot. These shouldnt tickle. Currently unless you have a certain set of circumstances they are useless. If i hit you in the kidneys irl your going to be peeing blood for a week.

The jab - in the game it only stops the bigger strikes (and all body shots when timed correctly) but it does nothing if someone is just throwing boxing combinations over and over. The stopping power needs to be buffed.At the same time the jab can be easily used to break the block and is too fast to react to if your goal is to move your head. You should be punished more for whiffing the jab and whiffing strikes in general. Granted it is on the user to punish


My fix.


Soft jabs should do no guard damage. If we add rhythm manipulation and a power modifier. I would even be happy having the lunging strikes take this utility if we could get rid of the range rule on them and allow them to be inputted at any stage of the combo. Jabbing someones gloves is annoying but a weak jab irl will not make me ball up. It will piss me off though and wait to time you with an overhand right. A power jab would make more sense for guard breaking if that's your style. Weak jab stopping power can remain as it is and the power jab should have .7 stopping power. A short fix would be to add parries back and increase jab stopping power



The block: I dont care what anyone says. If you repeatedly throw shots at my guard you will gas out its a matter of time. You should be focused on landing accurate shots instead of throwing 3 weak jabs and then doing chip damage with a hook. Have you ever heard of rope a dope? Nah?

My fix: drastically increase the stamina tax for blocked strikes and make it the job of the user to land accurate shots instead of volume that never lands clean.

The clinch - your going to tell me in an mma game there's no way to get to over unders except failed takedowns and slipping a shot? And that i can't hold my opponent in double underhooks against the cage as a means to control the tempo of the fight? Highly unrealistic and purely a video game mechanic.

My fix

Add a fully mobile over and double unders entries from within the clinch and make fighting for position matter. Casuals complained about double underhooks but that is solely the fault of the developers for such lack of care about educating people on how to play the game and how everything truly works. And with how the deep dive looked this year that lack of care will continue.


Lack of necessary footwork tools like the shuffle step and v step. More footwork tools and not just reaponsive lunges I feel are needed. Simply put make the stiff arm retreat multilateral except in other directions just have increased footwork speed. We don't necessarily need an animation for this but it would definitely make the game look alot better. Example

https://youtu.be/y8D3vf-VO3A

Rhythm manipulation

Currently every punch is thrown with full power. You can't choose to throw a fast strike or that hard piston of a cross that is designed to be the finishing shot. If you want to throw a weak jab to set stuff up use the jab we have currently. If you want to peirce the guard of a turtling opponent use the power jab or any power punch. Have stopping power and speed in proportion to the kind of strike being thrown.

Sent from my SM-N960U using Tapatalk

[Phillyboi207]

Re: Recovery Frame Question

1. Body shot speed counter opportunities and damage. The body shot is useless unless their short term stamina is low. Its also got unrealistic recovery frames and it is way too unsafe on block. If I whiff a body hook you have the potential to be rewarded with a free rolling thunder every single time. Simply blocking a body hook guarantees you a free straight punch like a body kick does even though a body hook is suppose to be the faster strike. People complained because they failed to respect their opponent down low and cried and got their way. They only have .2 stopping power while the knee has .7 hence the knee spam. This is disingenuous and purely video game mechanics. A iab can interrupt your body hooks. Very easy to do since there's no threat of really being stopped if your goal is body work.


My fix: drastically decrease tax for fwd moving body shots reduce recovery frames and drastically increase the stopping power of a body shot. These shouldnt tickle. Currently unless you have a certain set of circumstances they are useless. If i hit you in the kidneys irl your going to be peeing blood for a week.

The jab - in the game it only stops the bigger strikes (and all body shots when timed correctly) but it does nothing if someone is just throwing boxing combinations over and over. The stopping power needs to be buffed.At the same time the jab can be easily used to break the block and is too fast to react to if your goal is to move your head. You should be punished more for whiffing the jab and whiffing strikes in general. Granted it is on the user to punish


My fix.


Soft jabs should do no guard damage. If we add rhythm manipulation and a power modifier. I would even be happy having the lunging strikes take this utility if we could get rid of the range rule on them and allow them to be inputted at any stage of the combo. Jabbing someones gloves is annoying but a weak jab irl will not make me ball up. It will piss me off though and wait to time you with an overhand right. A power jab would make more sense for guard breaking if that's your style. Weak jab stopping power can remain as it is and the power jab should have .7 stopping power. A short fix would be to add parries back and increase jab stopping power



The block: I dont care what anyone says. If you repeatedly throw shots at my guard you will gas out its a matter of time. You should be focused on landing accurate shots instead of throwing 3 weak jabs and then doing chip damage with a hook. Have you ever heard of rope a dope? Nah?

My fix: drastically increase the stamina tax for blocked strikes and make it the job of the user to land accurate shots instead of volume that never lands clean.

The clinch - your going to tell me in an mma game there's no way to get to over unders except failed takedowns and slipping a shot? And that i can't hold my opponent in double underhooks against the cage as a means to control the tempo of the fight? Highly unrealistic and purely a video game mechanic.

My fix

Add a fully mobile over and double unders entries from within the clinch and make fighting for position matter. Casuals complained about double underhooks but that is solely the fault of the developers for such lack of care about educating people on how to play the game and how everything truly works. And with how the deep dive looked this year that lack of care will continue.


Lack of necessary footwork tools like the shuffle step and v step. More footwork tools and not just reaponsive lunges I feel are needed. Simply put make the stiff arm retreat multilateral except in other directions just have increased footwork speed. We don't necessarily need an animation for this but it would definitely make the game look alot better. Example

https://youtu.be/y8D3vf-VO3A

Rhythm manipulation

Currently every punch is thrown with full power. You can't choose to throw a fast strike or that hard piston of a cross that is designed to be the finishing shot. If you want to throw a weak jab to set stuff up use the jab we have currently. If you want to peirce the guard of a turtling opponent use the power jab or any power punch. Have stopping power and speed in proportion to the kind of strike being thrown.

Sent from my SM-N960U using Tapatalk

I appreciate the response.

1) We’ve seen body strikes buffed and it wasn’t pretty. How do you reconcile the fact that body strikes were way more common in the game compared to irl?

2) Jabs arent meant to beat combinations in the pocket so I dont agree with this at all. If anything the stopping power on the jab needs to be reduced when at improper range. I wouldnt mind a stiff jab with more start up in exchange for more stopping power but they’re good as a pre-emptive way to stop an attack.

3) I agree here but we’d need realistic damage to match.

4)100% agree and I hope they add a lot more to the clinch. Right now the control aspect (especially against the fence) is completely missing.

5) I would like a shuffle for lateral movement. I dont think it should be a priority however.

6) We do have rhythm manipulation. You can control the speed of your combos. I would like some sort of ability to sit down on strikes for more power.

So we agree on most stuff but you gotta remember the limited resources for adding some of this stuff

[1212headkick]

Re: Recovery Frame Question

I appreciate the response.



1) We’ve seen body strikes buffed and it wasn’t pretty. How do you reconcile the fact that body strikes were way more common in the game compared to irl?


one could make that argument for any strike in the game. But once body shots were nerfed people just starting spamming knees instead. And also at the time when they were nerfed noone knew exactly how to play a big problem with defending them is that the animation that plays when you advanced lunge back still gets hit when they hit you with a body shot. Also most people didn't understand that its literally a free uppercut every time it's blocked. Again this falls strictly on ea for lack of educational and testing tools like any other fighting game has( and apparently that's what they're going for anyways) user education and fixing the advanced back lunge would do wonders. Normally the backlunge is great against all other strikes.


2) Jabs arent meant to beat combinations in the pocket so I dont agree with this at all. If anything the stopper power on the jab needs to be reduced when at improper range. I wouldnt mind a stiff jab with more start up in exchange for more stopping power but they’re good as a pre-emptive way to stop an attack.

I never said in the pocket. I said against forward moving strikes it has very little utility. People complained about being hit stunned as they should of. But the answer was to add parries and not destroy the utility of the jab.



3) I agree here but we’d need realistic damage to match.



4)100% agree and I hope they add a lot more to the clinch. Right now the control aspect (especially against the fence) is completely missing.



5) I would like a shuffle for lateral movement. I dont think it should be a priority however.


[B] it should most definitely be a priority. Lateral movement is trash in this game because it doesn't take a lot to to keep someone in front of you. It would add to rhe rhyhm element of the game by allowing you to change the pacing of your footwork and offer technical fighters more ways to be unpredictable whether pressure fighting or outside fighting[b]



6) We do have rhythm manipulation. You can control the speed of your combos. I would like some sort of ability to sit down on strikes for more power.

This comes down to control scheme. And what I suggested is have a version of the lunging jab be a power jab and use he new press hold mechanics for this to work. Pretty sure this was discussed at length as well.
You can't truly control the speed of your combos. You can just add pauses to give the illusion of striking slower. Ufc 2 had a powwr modifier.



So we agree on most stuff but you gotta remember the limited resources for adding some of this stuff

Most of this doesn't even require animations and after two and a half years of development these are things that should be in the game. These are quality of life changes that were and still are overlooked. Ea is a 40 billion dollar company. Pardon me if I do not feel their pain as an excuse for not updating the game. You can get weird new lunging hooks and blitz strikes which look purely like some mortal kombat stuff but not use one realistic suggestion. And that suggestion came from you guys.

Sent from my SM-N960U using Tapatalk

[Counter Punch]

Re: Recovery Frame Question

Just to be clear I never used bobble head spam. I liked the game before head movement got super nerfed.

I just didn’t have problems with people using it against me because my goal wasn’t to be overly aggressive and in my opponents face the entire fight, which is the reason why people had such a hard time with getting duck-uppercutted. They just wanna stand in the phone booth and trade combos.

You had to be cautious and play like one shot could point you out. What made this possible was that you had 1 shot stopping power, as well that didn’t require you to sway first. But apparently that was a “bug” that got fixed. Ruined the game for me tbh.

[Phillyboi207]

Re: Recovery Frame Question

Most of this doesn't even require animations and after two and a half years of development these are things that should be in the game. These are quality of life changes that were and still are overlooked. Ea is a 40 billion dollar company. Pardon me if I do not feel their pain as an excuse for not updating the game. You can get weird new lunging hooks and blitz strikes which look purely like some mortal kombat stuff but not use one realistic suggestion. And that suggestion came from you guys.

Sent from my SM-N960U using Tapatalk

Blitz strikes are fairly common irl so I’m not sure what point you’re trying to make.

Are you under the impression that we design the animations?

[1212headkick]

Re: Recovery Frame Question

Blitz strikes are fairly common irl so I’m not sure what point you’re trying to make.



Are you under the impression that we design the animations?

No. I'm under the impression you guys gave the suggestion and they listened but ignore us when we make suggestions. And the blitz strikes look absolutely horrible. Clearly its just a doctored forward moving hook.

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[Phillyboi207]

Re: Recovery Frame Question

Just to be clear I never used bobble head spam. I liked the game before head movement got super nerfed.

I just didn’t have problems with people using it against me because my goal wasn’t to be overly aggressive and in my opponents face the entire fight, which is the reason why people had such a hard time with getting duck-uppercutted. They just wanna stand in the phone booth and trade combos.

You had to be cautious and play like one shot could point you out. What made this possible was that you had 1 shot stopping power, as well that didn’t require you to sway first. But apparently that was a “bug” that got fixed. Ruined the game for me tbh.

But was it realistic? Every fighter was Mike Tyson. It wasn’t an accurate representation of the sport at all.

[1212headkick]

Re: Recovery Frame Question

But was it realistic? Every fighter was Mike Tyson. It wasn’t an accurate representation of the sport at all.

An easy fix is to make jabs have same recovery window as the hooks and uppercuts