EA Still Owns the NFL License Exclusively

[Ovie832]

Re: EA Still Owns the NFL License Exclusively

I'll speak on this point because lb is inside my head on this one :-) Clint, Larry, Rex (and to go back, Phil, Ian, Ortiz) these guys are designers/producers. They do not write any code. Their vision, ideas and designs may be excellent, but like all software, without the programmers with the ability to IMPLEMENT the design in a timely manner with a high level of quality it means nothing. On my team at work, we have over 15 designers. They design the flow of the apps along with the entire UI/UX. They do not write ANY code and many times they will get input from programmers on whether or not something in the design is feasible. I've never been to tiburon, but we have seen enough over the years to realize that some designs for gameplay have been solid, but where they fail is in implementation. The programmers writing the code are not at all what I would call best and brightest when you compare them to other studios. Design is questionable too because they don't ever think of things that other studios do. That's a separate topic that can also be expounded upon.

I've talked to several guys who worked there and went there and spent significant time with some central gameplay programmers and you wouldn't believe the horror stories I've heard. There are a couple of reasons why we never get a complete football game. The biggest reason is ability. They simply don't know how to do it. It's taken EA ten years to work on line play, but it's still not as good. We don't have any wr/db interaction and we had it in 2k4. It was never touted as a feature either because it is assumed. We also had all penalties and flAgs on the field, still yet to be done in madden, 10 years later. Again, it's difficult for them. This yeAr they are touting receivers reaching for errant passes. Ok, well great that it's in there, but really???? It's almost insulting to me as a consumer. They stress simulation and authenticity yet there are no reach tackles, no real time injuries, penalties, proper ball physics etc. All of which I had 10 years ago. What do I have instead???? Community play calling and a tackle cone. Honestly, you can't make this stuff up and it's at the point that it's comical.

For me personally, I'm moving on and have fully accepted that football gaming will never recover. It's been permanently tarnished and that's just the way it is. If you really think there will ever be another game, you are dead wrong. There will never be another game.

The one last thing I will add is that Tiburon deserves all of the criticism and vitriol they get. They eArned it, and the spectre of 2k will continue to haunt their developers for years to come. Shawn Lee and Abe Navarro can take solace in the fact that they mAde A far superior game with a fraction of the budget, developers and time, and the tiburon guys still can't do it ten yeArs later despite a ten year head start and an exclusive license. They can make all.of the challenges they want, but in the end they were bested by a smaller studio who, quite simply, is far better than they are when it comes to football.

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one of the saddest posts I've ever read on OS.. only because it is so true and depressing.
Madden is it.. for a long.. long time. Honestly IMO... I think there is a better chance of a day when sports video games are no longer made... than a chance of 2k returning to football gaming. It just feels so far removed from what we have today.

NFL 2k was a creative expression. It was a masterpiece for its time... Video games answer to impressionism. 2k football was the godfather.. it was citizen kane. It had its grain and its character. it was perfectly imperfect. Madden is a hollywood blockbuster that continues to release sequels just to make big $$$. Lots of explosions and stunts.. but no essence. Just an expensive shell protecting a very shallow core.

I constantly think of AJ Dembroski's twitter rants a few years ago... when he said that EA doesn't push creativity.. that it is basically all corporate numbers and bottom lines. And I honestly don't know how anyone could ever disagree with that..Madden will forever be a video game. You will never have an organic and realistic experience. It fails to capture the countless nuances and aura of the sport. Sure... it is a 'representation' of the sport.. but that's where it ends.

EA never lets you forget that you are playing a video game. They continue to pollute their game screens with EA sports logos everywhere.. on replays.. on scoreboards.. on stat screens..etc. Why have the espn license? there is literally no purpose.

2k football is dead.

[24]

Re: EA Still Owns the NFL License Exclusively

Should I just accept the fact that there will never be another Football game other than Madden? I still have this idealistic notion that some company will rise up eventually and produce a Full Licensed NFL Game.

[Hooe]

Re: EA Still Owns the NFL License Exclusively

Should I just accept the fact that there will never be another Football game other than Madden? I still have this idealistic notion that some company will rise up eventually and produce a Full Licensed NFL Game.

There are other NFL-licensed football games - most recently, the upcoming Football Heroes: Pro Edition on mobile platforms - and other football games in general - Goal Line Blitz, tXtFL and other text simulators, and so on.

That said, I wouldn't expect any football AAA console video games not from EA Sports anytime soon, no.

[24]

Re: EA Still Owns the NFL License Exclusively

There are other NFL-licensed football games - most recently, the upcoming Football Heroes: Pro Edition on mobile platforms - and other football games in general - Goal Line Blitz, tXtFL and other text simulators, and so on.

That said, I wouldn't expect any football AAA console video games not from EA Sports anytime soon, no.

Thanks. It's been a long 10 years. We'll probably have to wait another full 10 to see something released on the Consoles. Who knows maybe EA will pull it together somewhere down the line and produce an awesome game.

[Jerros]

Yoooooooooooooo, thanks for stealing my post. Looks like we were on the same page . lol. But that's a first I saw someone stall every word I wrote. That's true thievery. I love it. Thanks man. Now go to 2k twitter and flood em with #bringbackAPFWITHUS&KICKSTARTER

First of all, I never saw your post at all. Every word I wrote was from me but if its the same line of thinking then we are on the same page. But I want to be clear I NEVER saw or read your post. Trust me, I can send you the transcript of the idea I wrote out which is 4 pages long which details what 2k could do to make a successful game IMO. Anyway, just wanted to be clear. NEVER read your post bro. AT ALL.

[Jerros]

Hey since buddy plagiarized my earlier post, it's only right I respond to you. I got the idea not info from looking at APF and Backbreaker. Also the many other generic titles that have been released. Also the fact that EA's team builder and team slots meant the use could have a bigger role in the first of customization and team creation or edits. The cloud, man if they just use the cloud, make a shell of a game and we customize it to to depth or death or deff that generic game becomes the real deal. Eff the license. That like buying a Benz to Impress people in school and your the most popular student. Buy the optima and save money for gas. It's simple. But 2k has to be down to, or better yet Visual Concepts. Visual concepts is the problem b and Scott Paterson. I do have a game concept on paper that will kill all of these games but I'm nobody. I sent it to Leigh Steinberg and VC. All we need is a real Dev, and kickstarter or fund raza to get this going. No more game being sold every year yo. They can just update the joint through cloud.

And I will respond in turn. I got the idea in my head from watching NFL converted APF rosters on youtube along with Backbreaker, but more importantly, from knowing how HUGE the mod community is already for 2k's NBA series on the PC. Also, I referenced Skyrim as an example of a game that has FULL customization from importing new models down to brand new textures. Hell, you can create all new worlds with total conversions. Granted, that game is an rpg but the idea is the same. The loophole for getting around the license is right there. All we need are the tools and vola, a new NFL game is born and we can give both EA and the NFL the finger in the process. In my write up I even talk about how Backbreaker has both an NFL and NCAA conversion. The possibilities are limitless. All 2k would have to do is make the damn game. Again, no plagiarism here. Was an idea I had that I wrote 4 pages outlining the blueprint. I was going to originally post the whole thing on 2k forums but it seems 2k could care less at this time. Still, I can't see why it wouldn't work. I can send the pages or post them here and you can clearly see I have a ton of ideas. But yeah, wanted to be CRYSTAL CLEAR, I did no COPY YOUR idea. Far from it. You want the transcript just say the word and I'll send it your way. Maybe you can add to it. Also, there's another guy on youtube with some very progressive ideas as well that I may add at some later time.

[JMD]

Re: EA Still Owns the NFL License Exclusively

Madden NFL 2005 (North America) PS2 4.18 million units + XB 1.61 million units = 5.79 million units.

ESPN NFL 2k5 (North America) PS2 2.15 million units + XB .1.54 million units = 3.69 million units.

That's all the info you need right there. 2K made a huge leap forward in one dev cycle and I believe had it not been for EA buying the exclusive rights , what would have been NFL 2K6 would have out sold Madden 06 forcing EA to step up their game or pack it in.

Man how I would have loved to live in that world for the past 10 years.

[Blzer]

Re: EA Still Owns the NFL License Exclusively

That's all the info you need right there. 2K made a huge leap forward in one dev cycle and I believe had it not been for EA buying the exclusive rights , what would have been NFL 2K6 would have out sold Madden 06 forcing EA to step up their game or pack it in.

Man how I would have loved to live in that world for the past 10 years.

It all depends on your product, but growth tends to be logarithmic in this case, not linear or exponential.

Eventually you start running out of football gamers in general, you know what I mean? This also hinges on the fact that everybody would have paid a $60 for NFL 2K6 as well.

[GROGtheNailer]

How do you like your cable provider? Madden is the same thing, no competition is always bad for the consumer.

[hanzsomehanz]

Re: EA Still Owns the NFL License Exclusively

It all depends on your product, but growth tends to be logarithmic in this case, not linear or exponential.

Eventually you start running out of football gamers in general, you know what I mean? This also hinges on the fact that everybody would have paid a $60 for NFL 2K6 as well.

I value your suggestion of logarithmic growth.

The $19.99 price tag gained more try and see consumers but it would take more years of sales at the standard price rate to evaluate the *loyalty of those consumers and lasting product value of the NFL 2K brand.

When the unit prices would eventually rise in line w EA's: would the sales also continue to rise - would they even reach the same base unit sales of NFL 2K5?

I would like to see the '03 sales for the two '04 titles and compare them to the $19.99 vs $29.99 sales of 2K5 and Madden 05.

*I do not doubt the loyalty of NFL 2K fans: there does seem to be a fraction more of them playing outdated football games compared to madden fans.

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[coogrfan]

Re: EA Still Owns the NFL License Exclusively

I value your suggestion of logarithmic growth.

The $19.99 price tag gained more try and see consumers but it would take more years of sales at the standard price rate to evaluate the *loyalty of those consumers and lasting product value of the NFL 2K brand.

When the unit prices would eventually rise in line w EA's: would the sales also continue to rise - would they even reach the same base unit sales of NFL 2K5?

I would like to see the '03 sales for the two '04 titles and compare them to the $19.99 vs $29.99 sales of 2K5 and Madden 05.

*I do not doubt the loyalty of NFL 2K fans: there does seem to be a fraction more of them playing outdated football games compared to madden fans.

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\\\\\\//////

For what it's worth, according to vgchartz:

Madden NFL 2004 (North America) PS2 4.26 million units + XB 1.02 million units = 5.28 million units.

ESPN NFL Football (North America) PS2 .27 million units + XB .27 million units = .54 million units.

Madden NFL 2005 (North America) PS2 4.18 million units + XB 1.61 million units = 5.79 million units.

ESPN NFL 2k5 (North America) PS2 2.15 million units + XB .1.54 million units = 3.69 million units.

[Big FN Deal]

Re: EA Still Owns the NFL License Exclusively

That's all the info you need right there. 2K made a huge leap forward in one dev cycle and I believe had it not been for EA buying the exclusive rights , what would have been NFL 2K6 would have out sold Madden 06 forcing EA to step up their game or pack it in.

Man how I would have loved to live in that world for the past 10 years.

Just thinking of what a great episode of Dr Who the bold would make, I wonder what "butterfly effect" no exclusive NFL license would have had on the world, lol.

[Greenblood60]

Re: EA Still Owns the NFL License Exclusively

Exactly. The NFL didn't care about the pricing. EA however did care for reasons solely regarding their own profit margins, not wanting to cut the price of Madden to hang on to market share. They said it themselves in the Pecover memos.

The whole "The NFL went crazies about $19.99!" is a long-standing inaccurate tale that was told a decade ago in conjecture by internet posters and never died, despite the facts coming out disproving the tale, which most never read.

At this point, I just figure too many people believe it now that it will just stay the story people go with. It also doesn't help that there is a guy on YouTube spreading the same misinformation to his thousands of subscribers. I saw a poster mention the facts to him at the top of one vid, but apparently he ignored it because he keeps making videos spreading the misinformation. I sometimes wonder if some of these guys are paid to do that kind of thing, like disinfo agents or something.

Exactly, the reason why EA acquired the exclusive license ( to every major American football league ) was because of the price that 2k was selling 2k5 for, and when they were releasing it. 2k5 ( if I'm not mistaken ) was released before NCAA 05 and Madden 05, which affected their sales and forced them to sell both games at a cheaper price. They also got the rights to the Hall Of Fame. 2k was still able to sign HOF players individually, but their efforts were less effective.

EA wanted to sell their games at a certain price, which was the same price as almost every other game, and they stopped 2k ( or anybody else ) from preventing that.

[Kramer5150]

Re: EA Still Owns the NFL License Exclusively

*I do not doubt the loyalty of NFL 2K fans: there does seem to be a fraction more of them playing outdated football games compared to madden fans.

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and why do you think that is??

[GiantBlue76]

Re: EA Still Owns the NFL License Exclusively

and why do you think that is??

No one WANTS to play an outdated football game. How many people do you hear about playing MLB the Show '08 or NBA 2k7? Probably none. People want to play the BEST game. That is something, as strange as it may seem, that appears to escape the minds of many on this board. They want to believe that it is fanboyism or "agenda" pushing instead. All of that is complete nonsense and is not worth entertaining in the least. Gamers want high quality and realism in their sports games, that has ALWAYS been the case. No one gives a damn about brands and who's name is on the box. They will gravitate towards the best games that meet those two requirements. It is extremely telling that you have a significant number of people still reaching back and playing outdated games when it comes to football. Madden is finally on a track of improvement after a completely wasted decade in which football gaming went backwards. Yes - backwards. We have less now than we did 10 years ago and football is the only sport in that situation. The bar has significantly been raised in all other major sports. Madden is still struggling to deliver a full featured, complete game while other franchises are adding things like real TV presentation, multiple broadcast teams, incredibly deep career and owner modes, storylines, etc. Meanwhile, football is still clamoring for proper player movement, penalties, ball physics, player interaction and authenticity.

I still own 2k5 and 2k8. The two best football games I've ever played. There was a time when Madden was the best game I'd ever played (going back to 1988 through 1993). I'd like that to happen again where I would be willing to get rid of the 360 and not care to play those other two games again. Unfortunately, I can't do that yet. I'm still getting compartmentalized football one microscopic piece at a time each year. I'm seriously hoping that will change sooner rather than later. I want to have that excitement of waiting in line at Gamestop at midnight because I can't wait until the next day. Football gaming was once there. Now if you go to a midnight release, you can show up late and walk right in and grab it.