Madden NFL 16 Features All-New Controls to Dominate Air Supremacy

[dsk1317]

Offline, it wasn't a shootout for me, if you find the right sliders. The CPU QB AI is truly illogical if sliders aren't moved. Dink and dunk, and no AI in avoiding a rush.

My patience runs thin messing with sliders for several months.

Kudos to sliders guys!

Well said, man!

[dsk1317]

Not directed at you specifically and I have no really strong opinions on user catching, but this most directly gets at what I think a lot of people are talking about in this thread - the focus on the user control at the potential expense of authenticity vs the focus on authenticity of the experience of user control.

Madden NFL is a video game. Video games by definition have outcomes influenced by user interaction, and console games in particular are far more real-time action-oriented than PC games. To that end, any feature Tiburon considers adding probably has to impact directly how the user plays the game. The CPU is to use any tools that are added for the user to use in order to create a compelling single-player experience, but by and large the focus in the game mechanics will center on what the user is able to do with his button presses in a variety of contexts.

If on the drawing board Madden is considering two implementations of a thing - one which is all non-interactive AI and one which the user can affect the result - I fathom to guess the thing which the user gets to influence is what gets implemented in the game, always.

From the perspective of the average Madden player - the "casual gamer" I suppose - anything with user interaction adds more to the game than anything that doesn't. They don't have the eye for authentic WR/DB jostling and therefore don't notice and don't care. They see no new gameplay mechanics for the current year and thus the game is "just a roster update". They do know, however, that the Madden series to this point doesn't attempt making receivers dynamically attack an airborne football, so they switch players to do it themselves, and this requirement makes the experience more compelling and enjoyable to them. When they see new ways to interact with the game while controlling a receiver, there's something new to do, a new wrinkle in the game. There's immediate dividends, and the game is new and fresh.

Basically, Tiburon's approach in Madden from my perspective is an action-oriented approach to the game of football. Under this paradigm, don't expect user catching to ever go away or even be deemphasized. To be honest, don't even expect a fleshed-out coach mode beyond the token implementation that already exists. Do, however, expect new gameplay mechanics for that component of the game if wide receivers and defensive backs are indeed a focal point for this year's game. Do also expect the AI to use the tools that are added for the user to use, and do complain loudly when they don't (for example, the user can steer blocks as a defensive lineman in Madden NFL 15 depending on player ratings, while the AI never attempts to do this; this is a problem and Tiburon should fix this). Do not expect Tiburon to focus on something solely for the sake of improving the authenticity of the game (the exception possibly allowed being the offensive line because the user never has control over that) if the something in question doesn't directly impact how the average person interacts with the game and influences the outcome.

And to be clear, I'm not making a judgment on whether Tiburon's approach is good or bad, right or wrong - opinions certainly vary, I have mine, you all have yours. Rather I'm attempting to explain what I observe as their approach to developing the game as objectively as I can. Until this creative direction doesn't return multi-millions of sales and widespread media critical praise for Tiburon, don't expect their approach to change and spend your money and attention accordingly.

Very well written, and done so with great diplomatic skill. You managed to share your thoughts on the matter, while still remaining neutral, and that is quite impressive.

[dsk1317]

Unless they have added actual route recognition, route based passing, coupled with pattern-match coverages, this is slightly scary. That being said, I haven't played the game, so I have no idea how this will impact it, nor do any of us. #RemainCalm

[bad_philanthropy]

Re: Madden NFL 16 Features All-New Controls to Dominate Air Supremacy

Basically, Tiburon's approach in Madden from my perspective is an action-oriented approach to the game of football. Under this paradigm, don't expect user catching to ever go away or even be deemphasized. To be honest, don't even expect a fleshed-out coach mode beyond the token implementation that already exists. Do, however, expect new gameplay mechanics for that component of the game if wide receivers and defensive backs are indeed a focal point for this year's game. Do also expect the AI to use the tools that are added for the user to use, and do complain loudly when they don't (for example, the user can steer blocks as a defensive lineman in Madden NFL 15 depending on player ratings, while the AI never attempts to do this; this is a problem and Tiburon should fix this). Do not expect Tiburon to focus on something solely for the sake of improving the authenticity of the game (the exception possibly allowed being the offensive line because the user never has control over that) if the something in question doesn't directly impact how the average person interacts with the game and influences the outcome.

I think another stream of this debate is less about the artful balance of good game design versus deep simulation, but about just how little evolution there has been with Madden's tech over the years—and not just in relation to video games generally, but even compared with EA's own in house titles.

While gen 7 saw significant improvements to the bones of EA's NHL and FIFA's tech base, Madden seems to have missed the evolution of other titles. Sure, it's anecdotal, but overall Madden still feels "janky" in the same ways year over year.

To that point, ND Alum has been criticizing the WR/DB interactions (or lack thereof) on here since M15 came out. Is that aspect of gameplay; WR catching, DB play, AI really that much different at its core than it was on PS1 even? I would argue it isn't, and that it should be by now. I actually played Madden 99 on my old PSX the other day. The thing that struck me was how little WR/DB play in the passing game has grown in sophistication since then.

Maybe it's a reach, but I want to point to this Q&A I had with NHL Producer Sean Ramjagsingh in the wake of the NHL 15 gen 8 debacle:

What was the reason Madden and FIFA were able to port non-gameplay offline mode features to gen 4 and NHL wasn't? I understand M25 and FIFA were sort of "cross-gen" games, but what made NHL the exception in the inability to port functioning offline GM and BaP modes as a holdover before a more robust experience could be implemented in future iterations?

I can understand the technical problems of implementing EASHL into new tech, and getting up to 12 users playing at once, but why did the offline modes take such a hit as well? Additionally, such standard features in sports games like player editing.

We had a very legacy codebase which made it difficult to add new game modes features. A big part of rebuilding the offline modes that made it into 15 was rebuilding the code base so that we are set up to build bigger and better features on this generation in a more efficient manner because of a better technical base. (apologies for the run on sentence)

-rammer

Maybe I'm reaching, but if any similar issue has existed and exists within the fundamental structure of the Madden software, I can only imagine how much that harms the ability of devs to do anything at all—especially considering how much more complex football is than hockey.

I think the state of Madden as software that has evolved poorly is as much a common criticism as the deep sim vs. hybrid title, and sometimes the crappy tech of Madden gets conflated with EA not focusing on sim. Madden in motion is a disaster, and has been for nearly ten years now. The basic mechanics of the game have not grown in sophistication as other titles in all genres have for the most part.

[GiantBlue76]

Re: Madden NFL 16 Features All-New Controls to Dominate Air Supremacy

I think another stream of this debate is less about the artful balance of good game design versus deep simulation, but about just how little evolution there has been with Madden's tech over the years—and not just in relation to video games generally, but even compared with EA's own in house titles.

While gen 7 saw significant improvements to the bones of EA's NHL and FIFA's tech base, Madden seems to have missed the evolution of other titles. Sure, it's anecdotal, but overall Madden still feels "janky" in the same ways year over year.

To that point, ND Alum has been criticizing the WR/DB interactions (or lack thereof) on here since M15 came out. Is that aspect of gameplay; WR catching, DB play, AI really that much different at its core than it was on PS1 even? I would argue it isn't, and that it should be by now. I actually played Madden 99 on my old PSX the other day. The thing that struck me was how little WR/DB play in the passing game has grown in sophistication since then.

Maybe it's a reach, but I want to point to this Q&A I had with NHL Producer Sean Ramjagsingh in the wake of the NHL 15 gen 8 debacle:





Maybe I'm reaching, but if any similar issue has existed and exists within the fundamental structure of the Madden software, I can only imagine how much that harms the ability of devs to do anything at all—especially considering how much more complex football is than hockey.

I think the state of Madden as software that has evolved poorly is as much a common criticism as the deep sim vs. hybrid title, and sometimes the crappy tech of Madden gets conflated with EA not focusing on sim. Madden in motion is a disaster, and has been for nearly ten years now. The basic mechanics of the game have not grown in sophistication as other titles in all genres have for the most part.

Considering who was involved in this discussion I didn't want to take part in it to avoid any misunderstandings and unnecessary conflicts, but I just wanted to respond to this post. This may be one of the most brilliantly articulated posts I've read in quite some time. It expresses my (and others I know) sentiment perfectly on this subject. All of the other games have "grown up" while Madden has remained an infant.

I went back and watched a bunch of videos of Madden 2002-2005 and I see mostly the same game. Actually, Madden 2004 looked FAR better in motion than madden 15 does. I still saw all of the same ugly tackle animations and silly looking movement mostly. Player movement - until it is addressed (and I mean really addressed by a strong group of passionate programmers), Madden won't progress.

Anyway, good post.

[Hooe]

Re: Madden NFL 16 Features All-New Controls to Dominate Air Supremacy

I think another stream of this debate is less about the artful balance of good game design versus deep simulation, but about just how little evolution there has been with Madden's tech over the years—and not just in relation to video games generally, but even compared with EA's own in house titles.

While gen 7 saw significant improvements to the bones of EA's NHL and FIFA's tech base, Madden seems to have missed the evolution of other titles. Sure, it's anecdotal, but overall Madden still feels "janky" in the same ways year over year.

To that point, ND Alum has been criticizing the WR/DB interactions (or lack thereof) on here since M15 came out. Is that aspect of gameplay; WR catching, DB play, AI really that much different at its core than it was on PS1 even? I would argue it isn't, and that it should be by now. I actually played Madden 99 on my old PSX the other day. The thing that struck me was how little WR/DB play in the passing game has grown in sophistication since then.

I haven't ever played any PSX iteration of Madden as I was an NFL Gameday fan as a kid. To that end, specific to WR/DB interactions and if they've profoundly evolved since the PSX days, I have nothing to offer.

It wouldn't surprise me, however, if there were still really old sections of code in the Madden code base. The last I read, Madden is anecdotally somewhere in the order of magnitude of a million lines of code (I don't have a source for that other than "I read it somewhere one time", someone correct me if I'm wrong). That's a lot of inertia to fight against, and with a franchise as popular and as important to EA Sports' bottom line as Madden, pressing the reset button like what EA Canada did with NHL according to that quote you posted (or skipping a year, which I think NHL did on top of blowing everything up; there was no NHL 14 on PS4/XBOX One, right?) is simply a nonstarter.

[Mr.Smif]

Re: Madden NFL 16 Features All-New Controls to Dominate Air Supremacy

Sounds like they are still adding mechcanics on top of the same old raggedy engine. I'll pass, if this is the case again this year. Brand new engine or nothing for me!

[Nwo4Life75]

Another year of bells and whistles and gimmicks and probably a still broken penalty system and still not a simulation football game!

[Skyboxer]

Re: Madden NFL 16 Features All-New Controls to Dominate Air Supremacy

As a no switch player myself I just hope they improve the AI WR/DB interaction. I'm way past the point of wanting to control everything. With that said it really shouldn't be that hard to have the best of both worlds if the AI programming is better.

Give those that like the control the options and those that don't.. program the game better!

What I'm "scared" the most about (And I've mentioned this before in other threads) is how EA said last year when replying to questions about AI not doing something the should.. they kept answering with "You can switch to them and do it yourself"

Until they prove me wrong this just leads me to believe (and not a slam but IMO a fact based on history) they do not have the talent (or shown it yet) to program any better AI.

Hope I'm wrong.

As I've stated before I enjoyed M15 for what it brought and can play it and enjoy myslef but that doesn't keep me from voicing concerns and disapointments..

[bad_philanthropy]

Re: Madden NFL 16 Features All-New Controls to Dominate Air Supremacy

That's a lot of inertia to fight against, and with a franchise as popular and as important to EA Sports' bottom line as Madden, pressing the reset button like what EA Canada did with NHL according to that quote you posted (or skipping a year, which I think NHL did on top of blowing everything up; there was no NHL 14 on PS4/XBOX One, right?) is simply a nonstarter.

Absolutely a non-starter with Madden. You're right.

I will say this, however, NHL, and FIFA have had three big resets over the years and it had significant positive impact on sales for the series'. In the case of FIFA, the rebuilds gave EA Sports a new cash cow. The series has literally exponential sales growth over the past five years. It's not just about soccer's growing popularity because PES sales have declined significantly relative to FIFA since its gameplay overhauls going back nearly ten years.

FIFA 06, on the Xbox and PS2 significantly rebuilt a lot of the game. I remember I had been off of FIFA in favor of PES since '01, but I tried FIFA '05, and it was the exact same as '01. The next year, '06 was a completely different game, and a massively different direction for the series. I had to check, and this is what I found via the all-reliable wikipedia:

Developers of the FIFA series made a complete overhaul of the game's engine for the 2006 installment of the game, asserting it has improved the control of play, having rewritten more than half the programming code for the game. In addition to a renovation of the game engine which discards the "the ball" system, developers boast a significantly more involved career mode and the introduction of “chemistry” which will determine how good teams play together.

Again, I will never forget how much this changed the game at the time. I don't think I ever have or ever will see that much difference in a game over one cycle. It was basically a new game. Nothing felt familiar. As far as I'm concerned this was the moment FIFA set itself up to be the juggernaut it is today—by tearing pretty much everything down and building a new game.

They did it again in '08 after a barebones move to gen 7 the year before. Game isn't without its flaws today, but the stuff we're complaining about gameplay-wise is so far ahead of concerns we have with Madden.

NHL, pretty much the same story. '04 was an odd outlier and quite a bit more "sim" oriented than any previous or subsequent releases up until '07. I cannot express how much better the 2k hockey games were at this point as well. NHL '07 was a radical rebuild of the legacy code. Probably not as significant from FIFA 05-06, but again, I want to emphasize how crazy the change in FIFA was, and so NHL '07 was still massive change.

We've just never had the preceding happen with Madden, and as a result, it feels like a dinosaur. It has none of the nuance and subtlety in its gameplay that defines the best facets of NHL and FIFA (I didn't intend to make this so comparative). Specifically, Madden lacks equivalent sophistication like FIFA's animation fidelity, brilliant, and subtle user feedback in terms of player momentum, first touch, dribbling, passing, and the rest of the ball mechanics. For NHL, though it's dated and in transition now, the skill stick, the skating, the puck physics, and even the ambitious collision tech, which they only really got right this year on 360 (go figure) took these games out of the era Madden remains in.

It's slightly informed speculation, but I believe the base "engines," if you like, for all three games (Madden, NHL, and FIFA) were developed for the PSX with the move to 3d models. Think in the same way you can still see and feel the bones of NBA 2k's Dreamcast roots. I can't feel NHL 97 in NHL 15 like I could in NHL 05, or FIFA 97 in FIFA 15 like I could in FIFA 01, but I can feel Madden 99 in Madden 15, and that is just unacceptable at this point.

My interrogation is over, but just for fun, I'll point to the PSX legacy of these titles with the glitch in NCAA 09 when teams were disappearing in the order they were added to the database through the years. Adam (the NCAA dev on the boards at the time) confirmed this to be the case. Examining the order in which teams disappeared revealed the age of database because a handful of teams added after the initial build in 98 or 99 disappeared in the order the were added, and once all those non-original db schools were gone, schools started disappearing in reverse alphabetical order—or the order they were added in the initial database. Explained better below:

http://www.operationsports.com/forums/ncaa-football/255659-ncaa-09-roster-issue-thread-38.html#post2038496782

They're disappearing because EA is still using an old database that saves each team. Notice the teams that are disappearing South Florida, FAU, FIU, Troy, Western Kentucky, and Wyoming.

You're thinking, okay.

South Florida & Troy joined Div. 1-A in 2001.
FAU & FIU joined Div. 1-A in 2005.
Western Kentucky joined Div. 1-A last year.

Those are the last teams added to the database, so that's why they disappear. Because they're the most recent teams to join Div. 1-A. The reason why Wyoming disappeared is simply because they're the last team in the original database before South Florida and the rest pop up.


You can edit their equipment, you'll be fine there because you're not disrupting the character limit.

[Potatoes002]

Re: Madden NFL 16 Features All-New Controls to Dominate Air Supremacy

Man... thanks for reminding me of that awful NCAA 09 glitch. I couldn't play my Dynasty for like 3 weeks because Western Kentucky somehow broke the game that year LOL

[scottyp180]

2 things I am hoping for:

1. Better WR/DB interactions. I'm sick of seeing DBs preventing receivers from running their routes causing receivers to run in place. There needs to be more interaction here where a receiver will run through the db, run around, push off, something that makes the situation more realistic.

2. More offensive/defensive pass interference calls. This goes along with my first issue but there are ways for WRs and DBs to prevent the other from catching the ball will no PI callled. I'd like there to be more realistic interactions and hand fighting that actually results in calls, a risk reward type mechanic instead of being able to prevent or slow down a WR by either standing in his way or moving in the opposite direction with no penalty thrown.

[shaunlmason]

Re: Madden NFL 16 Features All-New Controls to Dominate Air Supremacy

I'm in favor of sim gameplay, and this to me won't bring the game closer to that. It really sounds like a band-aid feature if the CPU AI hasn't been addressed, and honestly, I don't expect the CPU AI to be addressed in this situation.

What sound's like a band aid? The one line of marketing that some guy at Gamestop whose's never seen the game wrote?

[ggsimmonds]

Yes it is only one line, but I am nevertheless worried about what this means.I read it like an answer to a question.
"So how are you guys going to improve the passing game?"
" We added all-new controls that allow you to dominate in the battle for air supremacy."

The community has been complaining about the passing game for some time, and people have been offering solutions or what they want to see. No one was crying out for new controls or blaming the limitations on the current controls.

One marketing sentence only, yes, but it does sound like they added a new mechanic onto this horrible existing foundation.

[kjcheezhead]

Re: Madden NFL 16 Features All-New Controls to Dominate Air Supremacy

What sound's like a band aid? The one line of marketing that some guy at Gamestop whose's never seen the game wrote?

The all new controls would suggest they added FIFA jostling. They share the ignite and that would be a band aid. You yourself kind of mocked the no switch players that would rather see a more realistic untethered passing system than just adding these kind of controls to the current system. I got the impression you thought something like that too.