**The Different Perspectives of Simulation**

[tosa]

Re: **The Different Perspectives of Simulation**

I for one don’t hate 23, I would be ok if it didn’t have all the issues but at 58 years of age I have longed for more. I prefer CPU vs CPU which is not everyone’s cup of tea but for me it is more about trying to create an alternate universe of sorts that resembles what we see on Sundays.

I never expect it to be perfect but after playing this game from its inception, it seems the only thing that really continues to evolve is graphics and on the field attempts to recreate football concepts. I feel they have tried to make improvements and have over the year but are in too big of a hurry to recreate the wheel the following year, rather than continue to build on things they create.

The biggest issue I have is the persistence to keep the game fun for everyone. That can never be achieved unless you add the ability to toggle of tasks for casuals and add depth for sim fans. Why not just strive to put everything representative of the NFL into the game that they will allow you to and create so that it can be assigned to the CPU if the player does not want the tediousness of what may be involved. With this approach however, it requires logic to be put into the game that allows the CPU to use all the features that the individual has access to…..stop designing it so all there is are boosts to the user and you are winning Super Bowls by year 3. I for one want the game to be hard and require thought, luck and all the other things that make winning a game in the NFL hard. I want to feel like I earned it (this does not mean having come back code to keep games close!) Moreso it should be about weekly game planning, coaching staffs, player development, etc. Have the depth of a text based game with the graphics that a company like EA can produce.

So many good ideas come off this board and with Deuce in house they have someone that can lead the way to what the community wants but it doesn’t work unless you listen to them. Stop saying things like “that’s not good game design”. Design the game to look like the NFL and live up to your slogan —-“if its in the game, its in the game”. Provide options to delegate the minutia to the CPU for casuals and have it accessible to the sim crowd—- everyone wins!!!

And stop thinking “boosts” are all that is fun, the game needs balance. In real life no one is on a continuous road of boosts and coaching staffs don’t just continue to get better and stay together. I get the idea behind coaching trees but it is so indicative of what I have already stated. Put the logic in one year, then don’t really touch it again accept add more boosts. Does every coach in the NFL have the same “logic tree” and the same ability to “power up”?——no. Some will never be better than they currenlty are and others will develop and move on to other teams if not promoted within.

I don’t have the time, and I’m sure you don’t want me to regurgitate all that has been said on this board a thousand times but here are just a few things that stick to my mind.

*Make penalties matter
*Make injuries and roster depth matter
*Use current position terminology and develop CPU logic too understand it
*Make special teams matter- make me decide to keep a lower rated player over a higher rated player if he is really good at special teams.
*Make deep snapping matter
*Give us the flexibility to assign snaps as part of weekly prep
*Gives us the ability to assign blitz, zone , man percentages as part of weekly prep
*Let the CPU logic use the things you design (example: pattern matching)
*Give us the ability to globally edit our universe (in every way) —this would rectify a lot of you issues by allowing the public to modify the game to their liking, thus taking the burden off of you in the long run.


I’m not saying any of this is easy to code or to implement, I am saying what people want to see over time is this kind of depth. If they made attempts in these types of areas, the public would be more supportive I think. Also, I think the developers themselves probably want to build this type of game but are limited by what the decision makers come up with as a yearly plan. I had hoped the fix franchise movement would change things but sadly it has not, we got a few watered down nuggets and next year will likely be no different.

[Feros Ferio 7]

Re: **The Different Perspectives of Simulation**

I am going to offer a dissenting, unpopular opinion here. So be forewarned.



The word simulation is thrown around sports games but has varying definitions based on the person saying it or even as a setting in a video game.



All of the sports games replicate their given sport to a varying degree on the field and off the field. This experience will differ from player to player.



Simply put, my opinion is that there is no sports game that is simulation. As a PC gamer as well, the word simulation does not register to any sports game out there.



The sports game replicate the game to varying degrees as I said but to me, no sports game is considered simulation.



And like I said above, the word simulation means different things to different people. Fact is that there is not a single definition of simulation and that has already been shown in this thread.



In the past year plus, I have embraced the gaming philosophy of chase fun, not stats.



Now I know this will be disagreed with as some think that simulation's definition is if we see it on Sunday, the diamond, hardwood, ice, or whatever, that is the only definition of simulation.



I respect their views on the subject as simulation is all perspective based.



But for me, sports games are about chasing fun, not stats.

Chasing fun is the correct way that people need to look at these types of issues. While also acknowledging that fun is going to be drastically different from person to person.

Not having some CBA mechanics is a big problem as it is to chasing fun. Even if you're more of sin the off-season stuff and play or Sim the game and do the off-season the CBS rules need to be right from launch and one of the nice things with something like 2K is the ability to change aspects of those throughout.

These things don't take away from the folks who already love the game play but would enhance that experience further. Creating options to allow your owner, GM, scouts and other personnel handle those aspects would be beneficial to all.

Inherently to Madden it becomes a big problem to good players to keep coming back to. I try to pick it up but there's very little challenge in playing the games as I can run very few plays in a game and once the AI reads my tendencies I just counter off of that. Then there's no evolution of the next team scouting the 3 plays I ran the week before and I just do the same thing over again. I don't k ow wnough on coding to say that can be done but evolving your defense and offense game plans would be huge to either end of gamer.

For the off field items it's just way too easy to build a team and the cap causes almost no issues during that process.

In summary I stay away not because the game isn't Sim or its bad or stats are off but because the game presents no challenge whatsoever on the field or off the field.

That is not fun, it's boring.


Sent from my iPhone using Operation Sports

[jmch1990]

Re: **The Different Perspectives of Simulation**

Chasing fun is the correct way that people need to look at these types of issues. While also acknowledging that fun is going to be drastically different from person to person.

Not having some CBA mechanics is a big problem as it is to chasing fun. Even if you're more of sin the off-season stuff and play or Sim the game and do the off-season the CBS rules need to be right from launch and one of the nice things with something like 2K is the ability to change aspects of those throughout.

These things don't take away from the folks who already love the game play but would enhance that experience further. Creating options to allow your owner, GM, scouts and other personnel handle those aspects would be beneficial to all.

Inherently to Madden it becomes a big problem to good players to keep coming back to. I try to pick it up but there's very little challenge in playing the games as I can run very few plays in a game and once the AI reads my tendencies I just counter off of that. Then there's no evolution of the next team scouting the 3 plays I ran the week before and I just do the same thing over again. I don't k ow wnough on coding to say that can be done but evolving your defense and offense game plans would be huge to either end of gamer.

For the off field items it's just way too easy to build a team and the cap causes almost no issues during that process.

In summary I stay away not because the game isn't Sim or its bad or stats are off but because the game presents no challenge whatsoever on the field or off the field.

That is not fun, it's boring.


Sent from my iPhone using Operation Sports

I agree that they should allow for more CBA flexibility, and with the boosts the off the field stuff is way too easy. I have made some personal adjustments, sort of like house rules, for my own franchise to help amp up the difficulty. Along with generally playing in the spirit of the game (not trying to find cheats), my rules are:

1- No coaching boosts or staff points other than the tree that allows for 6 focus players (the way up that tree is only discounts on coach XP so it doesn't affect gameplay otherwise since I'm not buying those). This makes an ENORMOUS difference. Players don't just jump up to 99 because of the XP%/automatic skill boosts. You can't trade the 5th pick for the 2nd pick straight up. Players won't just sign with you because you have that 10% discount.

2- My "focus players" have to be either a) 24 and under, or b) 25 and under 90 overall. I do this to simulate younger players having the best development opportunity to get better, and also that the better you get, the harder it is to hit the next level.

3- I can't trade for more than 4 first round picks or 4 second round picks in any draft, and however many I have, I have to use at least half (e.g. I can't just keep hoarding and trading down picks).

4- No trading "up" to the next year's draft picks (sometimes teams offer a future 1st for a current 2nd, but I can only trade a 2nd for another 2nd or below unless I add more to the package).

5- No clearing of cap penalties unless you literally cannot fill a roster. You break it you live with it and retool.

This makes it a much more realistic and fun team-building experience for me. I do have to maneuver around the cap. I can't just get every superstar in the draft without making some sacrifices. I have to let top players go and search for lesser-quality replacements. I still have a bunch of superstars, but it's not just 99s-at-all-positions cheese.

[briz1046]

Re: **The Different Perspectives of Simulation**

I for one don’t hate 23, I would be ok if it didn’t have all the issues but at 58 years of age I have longed for more. I prefer CPU vs CPU which is not everyone’s cup of tea but for me it is more about trying to create an alternate universe of sorts that resembles what we see on Sundays.

I never expect it to be perfect but after playing this game from its inception, it seems the only thing that really continues to evolve is graphics and on the field attempts to recreate football concepts. I feel they have tried to make improvements and have over the year but are in too big of a hurry to recreate the wheel the following year, rather than continue to build on things they create.

The biggest issue I have is the persistence to keep the game fun for everyone. That can never be achieved unless you add the ability to toggle of tasks for casuals and add depth for sim fans. Why not just strive to put everything representative of the NFL into the game that they will allow you to and create so that it can be assigned to the CPU if the player does not want the tediousness of what may be involved. With this approach however, it requires logic to be put into the game that allows the CPU to use all the features that the individual has access to…..stop designing it so all there is are boosts to the user and you are winning Super Bowls by year 3. I for one want the game to be hard and require thought, luck and all the other things that make winning a game in the NFL hard. I want to feel like I earned it (this does not mean having come back code to keep games close!) Moreso it should be about weekly game planning, coaching staffs, player development, etc. Have the depth of a text based game with the graphics that a company like EA can produce.

So many good ideas come off this board and with Deuce in house they have someone that can lead the way to what the community wants but it doesn’t work unless you listen to them. Stop saying things like “that’s not good game design”. Design the game to look like the NFL and live up to your slogan —-“if its in the game, its in the game”. Provide options to delegate the minutia to the CPU for casuals and have it accessible to the sim crowd—- everyone wins!!!

And stop thinking “boosts” are all that is fun, the game needs balance. In real life no one is on a continuous road of boosts and coaching staffs don’t just continue to get better and stay together. I get the idea behind coaching trees but it is so indicative of what I have already stated. Put the logic in one year, then don’t really touch it again accept add more boosts. Does every coach in the NFL have the same “logic tree” and the same ability to “power up”?——no. Some will never be better than they currenlty are and others will develop and move on to other teams if not promoted within.

I don’t have the time, and I’m sure you don’t want me to regurgitate all that has been said on this board a thousand times but here are just a few things that stick to my mind.

*Make penalties matter
*Make injuries and roster depth matter
*Use current position terminology and develop CPU logic too understand it
*Make special teams matter- make me decide to keep a lower rated player over a higher rated player if he is really good at special teams.
*Make deep snapping matter
*Give us the flexibility to assign snaps as part of weekly prep
*Gives us the ability to assign blitz, zone , man percentages as part of weekly prep
*Let the CPU logic use the things you design (example: pattern matching)
*Give us the ability to globally edit our universe (in every way) —this would rectify a lot of you issues by allowing the public to modify the game to their liking, thus taking the burden off of you in the long run.


I’m not saying any of this is easy to code or to implement, I am saying what people want to see over time is this kind of depth. If they made attempts in these types of areas, the public would be more supportive I think. Also, I think the developers themselves probably want to build this type of game but are limited by what the decision makers come up with as a yearly plan. I had hoped the fix franchise movement would change things but sadly it has not, we got a few watered down nuggets and next year will likely be no different.

THIS !!!!


I'd add they have a hugely successful template to copy and replicate , just DO THAT , no need to try to be clever , people find the NFL fun ... in vast numbers worldwide , just copy that accurately and in detail .

[webbjay82]

Re: **The Different Perspectives of Simulation**

As long as stats are within relatively realistic standards I'm fine with them. If a bad qb throws for 4000yds then they just throw for 4000yds. Sometimes bad players have good stats.

When I'm looking for sim I want a game that feels and looks realistic. I really just want the franchise mode to feel alive. The fact that the game misses realistic injuries and penalties. Cpu teams don't use their whole playbook, coaches don't really matter and don't call games any different, still attempting 60+yd fg when they don't need too. Won't go for it on 4th and short when it calls for it.

There isn't any RFA, there should be an undrafted free agency period after the draft, the cpu won't use player options or the scenario engine, player growth or decline is completely outdated and uniform for every player.

I could continue but I think you see the point. I started playing mlb the show because the franchise is so much deeper and realistic and I don't even like baseball.

[JoshC1977]

Re: **The Different Perspectives of Simulation**

Fact is that there is not a single definition of simulation and that has already been shown in this thread.

100% agree.

Heck the thread title of "different perspectives of simulation" could be changed to "what I want in Madden" and mean exactly the same thing.

[canes21]

Re: **The Different Perspectives of Simulation**

As long as stats are within relatively realistic standards I'm fine with them. If a bad qb throws for 4000yds then they just throw for 4000yds. Sometimes bad players have good stats.



When I'm looking for sim I want a game that feels and looks realistic. I really just want the franchise mode to feel alive. The fact that the game misses realistic injuries and penalties. Cpu teams don't use their whole playbook, coaches don't really matter and don't call games any different, still attempting 60+yd fg when they don't need too. Won't go for it on 4th and short when it calls for it.



There isn't any RFA, there should be an undrafted free agency period after the draft, the cpu won't use player options or the scenario engine, player growth or decline is completely outdated and uniform for every player.



I could continue but I think you see the point. I started playing mlb the show because the franchise is so much deeper and realistic and I don't even like baseball.

I agree with everything here except the part about MLB The Show. I can handle bad players having good years or vice versa. I can handle questionable personnel moves here and there.

I do get tired of the CPU's behavior on the field. All CPU teams manage the clock in the same poor fashion. They seemingly pick plays at random and not with a purpose.

I get tired of the lack of front office accuracy. I get tired of the CPU not having 5th year player options also. I get tired of RFA being absent to this day.

The lack of depth is tiring with the series. I'm not asking for a revolutionary experience. Everything I want in this game has already been done before in other games, many by EA themselves. Sports games really shouldn't need a lot of effort put in to make the games feel alive. If you had CPU teams acting like real entities on and off the field then the stories write themselves.

Sent from my SM-S901U using Tapatalk

[MasonOS95]

Re: **The Different Perspectives of Simulation**

Every game has its issues but man would it be nice if they scrapped the face of the franchise and put that dev time into making the game work properly.

They gave us 3 settings (sim,comp,arcade) that do pretty much nothing

Scouting is worse but yes maybe more “realistic” in the sense we don’t have a certain amount of points to “scout”

They put traits in that mean pretty much nothing, and the ones that matter only matter when cpu controlled (like sense pressure which when user controlled doesn’t do anything but make some QBs worse)

The scenarios sounded amazing but instead we got a lame duck feature that only matters in full user leagues as cpu doesn’t have these options

I have yet to see a coach leave playing owner mode

They put in the yard which seemed like an attempt at copying the park in NBA2k but has zero depth and is just a joke. MUT squads but with your own player would be fun to play with your friends but then you need to make a nice squad if you want to have a chance.

CFM barely works properly with games not saving, drafts resetting, and all sorts of issues you can find in multiple threads here

It’s just a whole lot of window dressing with no substance at all to majority of the game, sure I find the on field fun to play and that’s great but you know so was All Pro 2k8 but again it had limited replay ability.

Now NBA 2K is definitely not perfect and has plenty of issues but at least you CAN make it your own league and do what you want, playing madden I always feel handcuffed.

Last night my team traded Deion Jones (who’s injured on EA’s roster) and I tried to replicate it in my franchise and since he’s on IR (no longer injured of course) I can’t remove him from IR like a real team can, I can’t edit and remove his injury which I can in nba.. and I can’t even use the start today feature because they don’t update it.

It’s just non stop great ideas with piss poor production, deuce can design all he wants but if it can’t be executed then what’s the point!

And what really makes it worse is they have shown they can do deeper modes (head coach) but I just can’t see it ever being done well with the current cycle schedule.

Another thing for something to really grip me into my own world is the presentation, like 2K has done an insane job on halftime shows, the entire atmosphere of a real life basketball game (Christ the jabbawockies have like 10 different dance routines we can watch) and it’s just sad to think where would 2K football and madden be if they were both competing for peoples business.

We could all go on and on about this games flaws and ideas we want to see but it’s just not likely, poor design with poor execution just gives a shallow experience.





Sent from my iPhone using Operation Sports

[KSUowls]

Re: **The Different Perspectives of Simulation**

I think another reason why some enjoy the title more than others is age and experience with previous football titles. For someone who grew up playing 4th and inches and T.V. Sports football on the Commodore 64, or Mattel electronic football (with the small screen and red dots that were the "players") as well as some of the more recent classics (early 1990 maddens, NFL gamedays, etc), Madden 23 is most certainly the pinnacle. Back then, you got what you got, there wasn't any bug fixes, patches, nothing. Whatever came out, you played it, which means our tolerance level is WAY higher.

I don't mean to narrow your entire post to 1 segment, but I will offer my rebuttal to this specific point and some of my general feelings on simulation.

I was born in the late 80s. My first football game was on the SNES, and I have played them nearly every year on every system from then to now on the PS5 with Madden 23. Despite technical challenges and the inability to patch most of those earlier games, by comparison Madden 23 is a passable football game at best. I've given up on hoping for a good and deep franchise mode. Sadly that just isn't coming. I do hope that Madden can at least provide a decent gameplay experience though, and unfortunately Madden 23 feels inferior to many of it's predecessors (especially those on older console generations). Does it do some things well and is it fun? For the most part yes. It's much less of a "football" experience than many versions before it though because the intended experience is not what it was 20 or even 10 years ago. The focus has shifted to big plays, stick skills, and avoiding "bad experiences" even if they simulate Sunday football (think some of the dev comments in the past around penalties not "feeling good"). If anything, I have had to increase my tolerance for what is acceptable in a football game in order to enjoy Madden.

On the topic of simulation. The "perfect" simulation game for me would simulate both the on field and front office experiences of the NFL. That certainly is not a realistic expectation though. IMO a good simulation game would somewhat closely resemble what we see on Sundays in terms of rushing, passing, defense and penalties for gameplay, and enough front office/coaching features to be engaging just enough so that I am invested in that part of the game.

[ForUntoOblivionSoar∞]

Re: **The Different Perspectives of Simulation**

Simulation? when I think of simulation that SHOULD mean simulating what we see on any given Sunday.

Madden as it stands right now (imo) is FAR from being a "simulation product" and therefore shouldn't be marketed as such....the gameplay on the field is very mediocre and stagnate, I understand that the game needs to appeal to a wide audience, but EA is in FAR to deep with this product to do that.

When I say the game should reflect what we see on Sunday's....I want ALL the NFL penalties, I want to see botched snaps, I want the ability to import custom soundtracks into my stadium (Acrisure) for atmosphere and the list could go on and on.

Again, the only thing this game has going for it is the exclusive license.....take away the shield and all the uni's and names and this game is an after thought, there is no way in hell the gameplay is good enough to stand on it's own...

The little Johnny's out there probably have no idea who John Madden was, so the name recognition factor goes right out the window....all they probably care about is usering their favorite player and throw for 10,000 yards and put up 20 td's a game.

So to that I say....simulation SHOULD be what we see on Sunday's....we have different modes in the game that are SUPPOSED to help with this, but like many areas in this game they fail to live up to expectations.

Pretty much. Does it simulate NFL football?


But the ambiguity comes from the degree to which it is an NFL simulation. But around here, when we say simulation, we generally mean as close to the NFL as is reasonable for the medium.

[DatsunDimer]

Re: **The Different Perspectives of Simulation**

My biggest issue with the simulation and franchise experience within Madden boils down to how terrible the logic is throughout the game. All games need to fake-it-to-make-it to some degree to achieve the uniqueness of sports games. That is where Madden fails miserably IMO. Between the action on the field to compensate for difficulty levels and the sim engine off the field, the whole thing is a mess at times.

Madden makes the con on the field very difficult for what I want out of the game. On the field you get bad animations, bad blocking logic, basically I spent to much time in game thinking "that would never happen in real life" and that really breaks my immersion. Gameplay has improved and I appreciate that to some degree. Madden looks like football, it doesn't feel like football.

Off the field... probably my favorite part of the game, suffers from far worse. This, of course, is a franchise mode issue and will likely never be corrected. Playbooks... where to begin... the sim stats are garbage and I think that starts with being based on playbooks and not the actual rosters. Madden treats this completely opposite of "simulation" making the players basically irrelevant to achieve results. Throw any QB on TB and he probably throws 50 TDs and is top 3 for MVP. Madden has no logic to adapt over multiple franchise years and sometimes it feels like you are basically just playing the current year over and over with new names.

Tuning/sliders are confusing and seem to do almost nothing at times. I am not the best at the game, but some things I do better than others. I feel like Madden is a rigid example of NFL football that is designed to function as a single experience. Even that it doesn't do well.

[Madden08PCgmr]

Re: **The Different Perspectives of Simulation**

But for me, sports games are about chasing fun, not stats.

Nothing but respect for that.

But, many of us played multiple versions of the game (PS2/XBox/PC) that were tons of fun, a good reflection of the game at the time, AND cranked out realistic stats.

[Funkycorm]

Re: **The Different Perspectives of Simulation**

Nothing but respect for that.

But, many of us played multiple versions of the game (PS2/XBox/PC) that were tons of fun, a good reflection of the game at the time, AND cranked out realistic stats.

Oh totally. I used to be in that same group.

For me what changed was MLB 21. I tried everything I could to make it perfect because I had given up my long term Indians franchise to start over in MLB 21. When I finally came to the conclusion that it wasn't fun for me because I was too busy chasing that unicorn.

But at 41, with a wife and 2 kids, a job that I need to be on my A game 100 percent of the time or something tragic can and will happen, and more obligations, I wanted games to be a way to relax for me and disconnect from life for a while.

I don't want arcade style sports games. That's not fun. But for my hobby I, like many, have done most of our lives, I needed to just go in, find some sliders and settings that work for me, and play games I find fun.

Big reason why I went back to MLB 20, Madden 21, and NHL 21. I want the fun aspect as my goal. It is also why I love open world and RPG games so much.

And there are many that want different because it is fun for them. And that's awesome. It's still about chasing fun. That applies to everyone. Everyone needs to do what is fun for them.

[canes21]

Re: **The Different Perspectives of Simulation**

Nothing but respect for that.

But, many of us played multiple versions of the game (PS2/XBox/PC) that were tons of fun, a good reflection of the game at the time, AND cranked out realistic stats.

And to some, having realistic stats is what is fun.

[Funkycorm]

Re: **The Different Perspectives of Simulation**

And to some, having realistic stats is what is fun.

Of course. Everyone should do what is fun for them. I agree with that completely. My view is just different than many here. And that is just fine. Play how you want. That's the best thing about video games.