Would "Fog Of War" Be An Acceptable Addition To Madden's Default Passing View?

[mmorg]

Re: Would "Fog Of War" Be An Acceptable Addition To Madden's Default Passing View?

This won't change because its not something really practical to look into changing.
The Passing Cone was a nice idea, but in order for it to work you had to move an analog stick, while probably moving another analog stick with your finger on the buttong to pass to a receiver.

Nope this isn't true. With the vision cone you never had to even touch the analog stick. If you held down the RT (xbox) or R2 (PS2) all you had to do was double tap the button of the corresponding receiver you wanted to throw two. The first press would snap the vision to the receiver, and the second press would determine your throw. So you would hit X, X to change your vision to the X receiver. You would hit X, B, B to look the defense off the B receiver, look back to the B receiver, and then throw to the B receiver. It was a really easy system to get used to and master, but people hate change and refuse to make the game harder than it already is.

[Broncos86]

Re: Would "Fog Of War" Be An Acceptable Addition To Madden's Default Passing View?

Nope this isn't true. With the vision cone you never had to even touch the analog stick. If you held down the RT (xbox) or R2 (PS2) all you had to do was double tap the button of the corresponding receiver you wanted to throw two. The first press would snap the vision to the receiver, and the second press would determine your throw. So you would hit X, X to change your vision to the X receiver. You would hit X, B, B to look the defense off the B receiver, look back to the B receiver, and then throw to the B receiver. It was a really easy system to get used to and master, but people hate change and refuse to make the game harder than it already is.

That didn't make it practical, though. The vision cone was a terrible gimmick, IMO. Fix the basics first.

[Only1LT]

Re: Would "Fog Of War" Be An Acceptable Addition To Madden's Default Passing View?

You're half right. It won't make a difference in the total time that it will take the user to get the pass off, and that is a good thing; it won't piss people off. What will make the difference is the time that it will take for user to switch from one receiver to the next. With Brady, Manning, or Brees it will be easy to get to your 4th read. With an inexperienced QB like Newton, you may have to do what he did in Auburn which is take off if you're first read isn't open. It will put a lot more pressure on the user to make the correct pre-snap read.

As far as the Rumble, sometimes it could rumble, but many times it wouldn't unlike the side we the QB isn't blind. It could rumble more based on awareness and mobility. Some QB's play like they have eyes in the back of their head, while other QB's are clueless. They could also make it not rumble at all, for inexperience, or rattled, QBs, or they could make it rumble for no reason at all to simulate a QB seeing, or feeling pressure, when it's not there. Basically, the more aware and mobile the QB is, the more reliable the rumble feature would be.

There is no read with double tap. You just tap the button twice. Hence the double in double tap lol. There is no reason to switch receiversw more than once, if that.

If the person you highlighted pre-snap is open, you hit his button. Same as ever. If the person that you highlighted isn't open, you hit the button of the personthat is open twice. Basically the same as ever. You still scanned the field with your own eyes. You do not need to highlight every receiver that your own eyes look at. You drop back in skycam and you scan the field for receivers that are open. Sometimes you press the buitton once. Sometimes you press it twice. Other than that NOTHING changes.

There is absolutely no more reading going on with double tap than there is currently. There is absolutely no reason to switch receivers more than once, if that.

Tiburon copuld patch this in in 5secs (exaggeration disclaimer)because it changes almost nothing.

[Only1LT]

Re: Would "Fog Of War" Be An Acceptable Addition To Madden's Default Passing View?

I don't see how it's only slightly better. With a smart QB you can get to your fourth read. With a less intelligent QB, most of the time, if you're first or second read isn't open, you have to take off, or take a sack. This method makes is harder to find the open man with stupid QB no matter how strong or accurate his arm is.

If you're starting a franchise with the Panthers, and you start Newton, you may have to take off if the first read isn't open. Years down the line, he may get to his fourth read like an elite QB.

Also, with your suggestion, you can't look off receivers. With the double tap system ( obviously the receiver would be highlighted in some way) you can look defenders off. With inexperienced, or stupid QBs, looking off defenders might not be an option. With elite Qbs it will.

As per my previous post. There is absolutely no more reading with double tap than there is currently. The only diff is that you will have to hit the button twice on occasion.

[Only1LT]

Re: Would "Fog Of War" Be An Acceptable Addition To Madden's Default Passing View?

Our difference of opinion is in the details of that scenario. If the person plans on wearing that hideous shirt out some wear I am not going, then yeah, I will tell them they should wear another shirt and I couldn't give 2 funks if they listen or not. However, if they plan on wearing that hideous shirt and hanging out with ME, then I would suggest things I think they will actually do, to make that same shirt more presentable.

Madden has been rocking that hideous shirt for 20+ years and I could of cared less about their whole outfit until 6 years ago, when hanging out with them became the only way to play NFL video games.




You say that as if any request for change in Madden just falls on deaf ears but I don't agree. I have seen them add things like broadcast cam, correct equipment and dreads because people rallied behind them and they were not too drastic a change. That is the same way I am approaching the current passing mechanic. Not because I am some wide eyed optimist "wishing on a star" but because I am practical person that has seen this approach work before.

I have a pretty good idea about your take on EA concerning Madden and I respect it. However, I would rather take a practical approach trying to improve things than a potentially cynical "que sera sera" approach.

I don't have a que sera attitude. If I did, I wouldn't comment.

My attitude or approach is that I think that radical changes need to be made in certain areas of the game and i will let it be known what those areas are and what radical changes need to be made. I could care less if it ruffles feathers.

I have no control over the devs. If I did, I'd be playing Madden 11 right now instead of talking on a forum lol. I'm pretty sure they don't want to hear what i have to say. I know there is little chance that they adopt one of my radical changes, but I will never stop telling them, or anyone else, what I think needs to be done to make this game great. If that causes people to threaten my physical person (lol), I'll PM them my address.

What I will not do is work on their terms to try and make some of their terrible ideas, slightly less terrible. They have enough people that do that already.

If you thought that this was a great idea, we wouldn't be having this convo right now, but from what you said, it doesn't seem like you do. It seemed like you are trying to make the best out of a terrible situation because you think that this is something they are more likely to do.

If you really think this is the greatest thing since McDonald's fries, then forget everything I said. I apologize. But if this is just a concession to try and come up with something, anything, that will make passing even minutely better, while not rocking the boat, but you have some ideas that you do actually think are grade A, but don't want to discuss them, because they would rock the boat, I, personally, would like to hear those.

That's all I'm saying. I mean no offense.

[LiquorLogic]

Re: Would "Fog Of War" Be An Acceptable Addition To Madden's Default Passing View?

There is no read with double tap. You just tap the button twice. Hence the double in double tap lol. There is no reason to switch receiversw more than once, if that.

If the person you highlighted pre-snap is open, you hit his button. Same as ever. If the person that you highlighted isn't open, you hit the button of the personthat is open twice. Basically the same as ever. You still scanned the field with your own eyes. You do not need to highlight every receiver that your own eyes look at. You drop back in skycam and you scan the field for receivers that are open. Sometimes you press the buitton once. Sometimes you press it twice. Other than that NOTHING changes.

There is absolutely no more reading going on with double tap than there is currently. There is absolutely no reason to switch receivers more than once, if that.

Tiburon copuld patch this in in 5secs (exaggeration disclaimer)because it changes almost nothing.

Good point, but if you take away the option to highlight the receiver before the snap, then the speed at which the QB can locate, or highlight, receivers is now more significant. I mean, do QBs look at receivers while they snap the ball ?

Also, the icons shouldn't appear until the QB has finished his drop, or the when he's caught the ball if he's in shot-gun.

[Thinking Out Loud]

Re: Would "Fog Of War" Be An Acceptable Addition To Madden's Default Passing View?

I don't have a que sera attitude. If I did, I wouldn't comment.

My attitude or approach is that I think that radical changes need to be made in certain areas of the game and i will let it be known what those areas are and what radical changes need to be made. I could care less if it ruffles feathers.

I have no control over the devs. If I did, I'd be playing Madden 11 right now instead of talking on a forum lol. I'm pretty sure they don't want to hear what i have to say. I know there is little chance that they adopt one of my radical changes, but I will never stop telling them, or anyone else, what I think needs to be done to make this game great. If that causes people to threaten my physical person (lol), I'll PM them my address.

What I will not do is work on their terms to try and make some of their terrible ideas, slightly less terrible. They have enough people that do that already.

If you thought that this was a great idea, we wouldn't be having this convo right now, but from what you said, it doesn't seem like you do. It seemed like you are trying to make the best out of a terrible situation because you think that this is something they are more likely to do.

If you really think this is the greatest thing since McDonald's fries, then forget everything I said. I apologize. But if this is just a concession to try and come up with something, anything, that will make passing even minutely better, while not rocking the boat, but you have some ideas that you do actually think are grade A, but don't want to discuss them, because they would rock the boat, I, personally, would like to hear those.

That's all I'm saying. I mean no offense.

C'mon OnlyLT, you know full well I don't think FOW is "the greatest thing since McDonald's fries" because I already said it's NOT my ideal choice. Also, I am not worried about rocking the boat, I just don't want to spend too much time on wishlists. I despise that title because ain't nobody granting no friggin wishes anywhere, much less EA. LOL

Even taking the time to imagine my ideal pass mechanic being in Madden, brings more frustration than elation, for me. I am as excitingly optimistic as I have ever been these last 6 years about Madden 12. However, just the fact that I spent more time day dreaming how to improve Madden the last 6 years than I did playing it, is ridiculous.

These last 6 years have been like having a hot gf with poor hygiene. No matter how hard I tried to overlook the parts that stink, they kept ruining the immersion.

[Only1LT]

Re: Would "Fog Of War" Be An Acceptable Addition To Madden's Default Passing View?

Good point, but if you take away the option to highlight the receiver before the snap, then the speed at which the QB can locate, or highlight, receivers is now more significant. I mean, do QBs look at receivers while they snap the ball ?

Also, the icons shouldn't appear until the QB has finished his drop, or the when he's caught the ball if he's in shot-gun.

That isn't really the issue. The issue is that there is no need to actually highlight every receiver to actually go through your progression. You just do things exactly the way that we do now except that when it's time to throw you hit the button twice instead of once, but sometimes you will only need to hit it once.

The issue is that there is no reading, which is the word that you used in a previous. You read, or don't read rather, with double tap the same way you do, or do not rather, with the current mechanic. You change nothing fundamentally about how the passing game plays right now, save for having to hit the receivers button twice sometimes. It's drop back in skycam and read receivers with your eyes and your eyes only, until it's time to deliver the pass and then you hit a button, sometimes once, sometimes twice. Yeah, that's what we do now, except you always hit the button once. That's the ONLY difference. That's the issue.

Whether you are allowed to highlight a receiver pre-snap, or one is designated for you via the play called isn't the issue. I was just using it to show that if you throw to someone who is highlighted pre-snap that there isn't even a double tap necessary anymore, so the fact that there isn't much diff with the DT idea compared to current if you had to DT alll the time, there is even less of a difference considering that you won't even have to do it all the time either.

My question is, what are you trying to accomplish, because adding DT changes next to nothing about how you play the game?

[Only1LT]

Re: Would "Fog Of War" Be An Acceptable Addition To Madden's Default Passing View?

C'mon OnlyLT, you know full well I don't think FOW is "the greatest thing since McDonald's fries" because I already said it's NOT my ideal choice. Also, I am not worried about rocking the boat, I just don't want to spend too much time on wishlists. I despise that title because ain't nobody granting no friggin wishes anywhere, much less EA. LOL

Even taking the time to imagine my ideal pass mechanic being in Madden, brings more frustration than elation, for me. I am as excitingly optimistic as I have ever been these last 6 years about Madden 12. However, just the fact that I spent more time day dreaming how to improve Madden the last 6 years than I did playing it, is ridiculous.

These last 6 years have been like having a hot gf with poor hygiene. No matter how hard I tried to overlook the parts that stink, they kept ruining the immersion.

I hear you and I can appreciate that. I'm always interested in hearing other people's ideas for the game and discussing or debating them though. It's hard for me to discuss something that the person proposing the idea, doesn't even really think it's a great idea though, so I'll respectfully leave the FOW discussion to you and others. Not trying to diss you or anything. Maybe I'm weird or something (probably lol) but I just can't get into the discussion. I don't like the idea, but there is really no reason to reason to discuss it further because you aren't in love with it either so there isn't really anything left to say. But I don't want to interfere with those that do want to discuss it.

That is the best way that I can explain it. If you have some ideas that you actually are in love with and would like to share, I'd be more into discussing those, and ripping them to shreds. Just kidding

[4solo]

Re: Would "Fog Of War" Be An Acceptable Addition To Madden's Default Passing View?

I think I have a simple interesting idea, its kind of mixture of all the ideas throughout this thread. If its not I'm sure you guys will rip it apart lol I would call it Natural Progression.

The idea is based upon the current playing view (GOD View) in a single player or online game. Though I think some elements can make it to head to head on same console. Also i'm on PS3 on don't know 360 buttons.

Passing Mechanic

I think it should be a two button passing mechanic. One button to switch receivers (L1) and the other button to throw (X). Now this is the key. We all know passing routes are not just randomly thrown together. There is a science to the plays which is why a QB has to follow progression. So a pass play would go like this. Upon the completeion of the QB drop, the X would appear above the primary receiver. If this receiver is open simple press X to throw the pass. If this receiver is covered press L1 to change receivers. Now when L1 is press it puts the Icon over the reciever that is supposed to be your second read for that play. If that receiver is covered you press L1 again and it goes to your 3rd read and so on. This forces players to follow the natural progression of the play. The thing is every pass play progression would be different.

Pre-Snap

Now to keep from feeling that you are forced to follow progression all the time this is where pre-snap reads comes into play. During pre-snap you could change who you want as your primary receiver if you thought his route was going to be open b4 progression reaches him. You would do this by simply having a button labeled primary in pre-snap adjustments and selecting a receiver icon same as hot route. Now if you take this gamble and he his not open and you want to change receivers, pressing L1 would then take you to the original Primary receiver and then work through the QB natural progression.

Hot Routes

The main change I would make to hot routes is that you would only get one per play. Let face it, NFL QB's are not sitting up there changing everybody routes at the line of scrimmage. A Hot Route is intended to counter a blitz or find a hole in the zone. If a hot route is called this would automatically make the hot routed receiver the primary receiver, unless the Hot Route is making a back stay in to block. Where as then, the play would follow natural passing progression.

QB Awareness

Awareness would effect all three aspects mentioned above. The Passing Mechanic would be affected by AWR in how long it would take for the icon to appear above the WR head when changing receivers. For high AWR QB's it would appear almost instantly, for lower AWR QB's it would appear slower. Again remember, a QB can still throw the ball if the icon is not present it would just result in an inaccurate pass.

Pre-snap would be affected in the amount of pre-snap options a QB would have. Here are different areas I thought it could effect:

-Pass Play art

High AWR QB's would be able to see all receiver routes in pass play art. As AWR lowers then simply start to take away receiver routes starting with the 5th option then working backwards; with the lowest AWR QB's only able to see primary receiver routes.(or none at all if it you want to be extreme) Hot routes could be affected by this, as not being able to see full play art could cause you to call bad hot routes. Sending two receivers into the same area.

-Selecting Primary Receivers

AWR could also effect your ability to select a different primary receiver pre-snap b/c if your QB has low AWR( not able to see all route) you won't know all the routes of your receivers. Unless you just remember them yourself. (or you could restrict selecting a different primary receiver to only the routes shown pre-play)

-Audibles
High AWR QB's would have the full completement of audibles , and as AWR decreases start to take away audibles including line shifts. I think this would be a great way to sim AWR.

Another area that I feel could be adressed with this system is Throwing on the Run. If you choose to scramble out of the pocket then the icon would automatically switch to the closest receiver on the side you are scrambling. Unless the Icon is already on a receiver to that side of the field. If that receiver is running in the opposite direction then after the WR and QB reaches a predetermined distance apart the above rule would take place. While scrambling or standing outside the tackle box you can only switch to receivers on that side of the field. This would eleminate running to one side of the field and throwing across you body.

Well thats all I have for now. Ok guys rip it up. LOL

(Sorry didn't know I had typed that much)

[coogrfan]

Re: Would "Fog Of War" Be An Acceptable Addition To Madden's Default Passing View?

[LiquorLogic]

Re: Would "Fog Of War" Be An Acceptable Addition To Madden's Default Passing View?

That isn't really the issue. The issue is that there is no need to actually highlight every receiver to actually go through your progression. You just do things exactly the way that we do now except that when it's time to throw you hit the button twice instead of once, but sometimes you will only need to hit it once.

The issue is that there is no reading, which is the word that you used in a previous. You read, or don't read rather, with double tap the same way you do, or do not rather, with the current mechanic. You change nothing fundamentally about how the passing game plays right now, save for having to hit the receivers button twice sometimes. It's drop back in skycam and read receivers with your eyes and your eyes only, until it's time to deliver the pass and then you hit a button, sometimes once, sometimes twice. Yeah, that's what we do now, except you always hit the button once. That's the ONLY difference. That's the issue.

Whether you are allowed to highlight a receiver pre-snap, or one is designated for you via the play called isn't the issue. I was just using it to show that if you throw to someone who is highlighted pre-snap that there isn't even a double tap necessary anymore, so the fact that there isn't much diff with the DT idea compared to current if you had to DT alll the time, there is even less of a difference considering that you won't even have to do it all the time either.

My question is, what are you trying to accomplish, because adding DT changes next to nothing about how you play the game?

Changing the way the user has to read the difference really isn't the most important issue to me. The most important issue to me is that awareness, or lack there of,impacts the effectiveness of user controlled QBs.
Right now, the only way for EA to make QBs with low awareness less effective than QBs with high awareness is to randomly make the QB (with low awareness) throw bad passes. That's not authentic.

Also, even though the user wouldn't physically go through his progressions by pressing all four buttons, the user still visually goes through their progressions. It takes the user more time to look at four or five reads than it does to just look at the first read. With elite QBs, the user will have more time to go through progressions ( with their own eyes) because the icon of the corresponding receiver will be highlighted faster. The user will be able tap the button a second time to throw the ball sooner than a less intelligent QB.

[da ThRONe]

Re: Would "Fog Of War" Be An Acceptable Addition To Madden's Default Passing View?

This is how I feel, and I don't think things such as double tap, vision cone, etc make the difference. Otherwise, AWR = how strong your QB's neck muscles are (i.e. how fast they turn their heads ). Before things such as these are talked about, the basics of the throwing game need to be fixed. RBP, better ball trajectory, better "touch" on throws, etc. After that, I'm more inclined to suggest pre-snap aspects to apply. Identifying the "mike" for blocking schemes, for example.

It's not about how fast you turn your head, it's about how fast you can locate your next target. The more intelligent and experienced the better you are at knowing where your WR's are i.e. the faster you go through your reads. That's exactually where being more aware benefit QB.

[da ThRONe]

Re: Would "Fog Of War" Be An Acceptable Addition To Madden's Default Passing View?

I don't understand what the misconception is with the double tap.

Let me break it down

Pre-snap.

You read the defense and select the players you think will be open based on the defense. (Just like real QB's)

Post snap.

With tracking that was added to the game your QB will follow a target. High Awareness QB's will look away from there pre snap reads while low awareness QB's will stare down his true intended target.

If you guessed wrong and your initial pre-snap read is covered you will need to locate another target by pressing the players corresponding symbol. The speed inwhich a QB locates his secondary target is also awareness based.

I like the idea of having a designated passing button like the RT button for example. So at anytime your QB can throw the ball if he's pressured at your own risk. If the throw isn't near your player intention grounding.

I think people underestimate (especially if the defense plays better) the split seconds it takes to locate a WR, select him, and then press another button to throw it to him. It could mean the difference between a guy being open and a guy being covered or an easy throw becoming a moderately difficult throw. This is even with the High awareness guys who will locate targets with ease. So imagine what it would mean for the middle of the pack awareness QB's with middle of the pack accuracy.

[Only1LT]

Re: Would "Fog Of War" Be An Acceptable Addition To Madden's Default Passing View?

t

Passing Mechanic

I think it should be a two button passing mechanic. One button to switch receivers (L1) and the other button to throw (X). Now this is the key. We all know passing routes are not just randomly thrown together. There is a science to the plays which is why a QB has to follow progression. So a pass play would go like this. Upon the completeion of the QB drop, the X would appear above the primary receiver. If this receiver is open simple press X to throw the pass. If this receiver is covered press L1 to change receivers. Now when L1 is press it puts the Icon over the reciever that is supposed to be your second read for that play. If that receiver is covered you press L1 again and it goes to your 3rd read and so on. This forces players to follow the natural progression of the play. The thing is every pass play progression would be different.


Hot Routes

The main change I would make to hot routes is that you would only get one per play. Let face it, NFL QB's are not sitting up there changing everybody routes at the line of scrimmage. A Hot Route is intended to counter a blitz or find a hole in the zone. If a hot route is called this would automatically make the hot routed receiver the primary receiver, unless the Hot Route is making a back stay in to block. Where as then, the play would follow natural passing progression.

QB Awareness

Awareness would effect all three aspects mentioned above. The Passing Mechanic would be affected by AWR in how long it would take for the icon to appear above the WR head when changing receivers. For high AWR QB's it would appear almost instantly, for lower AWR QB's it would appear slower. Again remember, a QB can still throw the ball if the icon is not present it would just result in an inaccurate pass.

Pre-snap would be affected in the amount of pre-snap options a QB would have. Here are different areas I thought it could effect:

-Pass Play art

High AWR QB's would be able to see all receiver routes in pass play art. As AWR lowers then simply start to take away receiver routes starting with the 5th option then working backwards; with the lowest AWR QB's only able to see primary receiver routes.(or none at all if it you want to be extreme) Hot routes could be affected by this, as not being able to see full play art could cause you to call bad hot routes. Sending two receivers into the same area.

-Selecting Primary Receivers

AWR could also effect your ability to select a different primary receiver pre-snap b/c if your QB has low AWR( not able to see all route) you won't know all the routes of your receivers. Unless you just remember them yourself. (or you could restrict selecting a different primary receiver to only the routes shown pre-play)

-Audibles
High AWR QB's would have the full completement of audibles , and as AWR decreases start to take away audibles including line shifts. I think this would be a great way to sim AWR.

Another area that I feel could be adressed with this system is Throwing on the Run. If you choose to scramble out of the pocket then the icon would automatically switch to the closest receiver on the side you are scrambling. Unless the Icon is already on a receiver to that side of the field. If that receiver is running in the opposite direction then after the WR and QB reaches a predetermined distance apart the above rule would take place. While scrambling or standing outside the tackle box you can only switch to receivers on that side of the field. This would eleminate running to one side of the field and throwing across you body.

Well thats all I have for now. Ok guys rip it up. LOL

(Sorry didn't know I had typed that much)

Interesting ideas. I like some of them, but there are a few I don't.

Progression
I'm cool with the one button pass mechanic, but I think that going through reads would be better on the Right Stick. Although there is a natural progression of every play, the QB is never tied to it. Based on the D, or just his intuition, he could look out of sequence if he wanted. Not being able to do this would be a mistake I think. Having a button go through reads in a set order is very reminiscent of Tecmo Bowl. Great game, but dated. Being able to only read in one direction, and having to cycle through every receiver again should you press the button too many times, isn't practical nor realistic, and to me, is the epitome of arcadey. One button passing with the Right Stick though is all good with me though.

Hot Routes
I don't like limiting the number of routes you can hot route. I'm not one of those players that audibles his entire team to a new play every down, but I still don't like the restriction. It may not be done often, but the QB can call as many Hots as he wants, and I feel we should be able to as well. What I think would be better is to add QB movement to the process so that when you audible or Hot route, the QB gets out from center and calls it out. When on the road he has to go to the players, and some have to come to him to hear the call. Then when he gets back under center you have to be set for a couple seconds in order to snap the ball. I would do this for Hot Routes, audibles, and line shifts, and I would make you only able to do one at a time. This way the amount of audibles is limited by how much time you can actually call in the allotted time, versus a predetermined constraint. It will make it more realistic, more aesthetically pleasing, but will still limit those that want to audible every single thing before every snap.

Your QB awareness idea is pretty sound with regards to the icon taking longer to show up for poor awareness, but still having the ability to pass anyway at the cost of accuracy. I like it.

The Awareness with regards to the Play Art idea is good too, if you mean that all of the art isn't available at the line for low awareness QB's, but is available when you pick. I think that's what you mean. Just want to clarify.

Not crazy about your throwing on the run idea. The potential is there for the game to change my intended target a split second before I press the button to throw to someone I have highlighted. It's rife with F me over possibilities lol.

Good ideas though. I'm onboard with most of them, pending the tweaks I mentioned.