Would "Fog Of War" Be An Acceptable Addition To Madden's Default Passing View?

[Only1LT]

Re: Would "Fog Of War" Be An Acceptable Addition To Madden's Default Passing View?

No vision cone or highlighted receivers QB vision display. Just a visible head turn by the QB, actually looking at each receiver, dictated by the right stick control. CPU defenders, looking at the QB, would be effected by this head turn and users would actually have to look in the backfield at the QB's head, to try and determine which receiver the QB is looking at.

EVERY QB would be required to look at a receiver 3 seconds (negotiable) before attempting to pass to that receiver, without incurring a pass ratings hit. Users would know when the 3 seconds is up and the QB is "focused" by the controller rumbling. Pass rating's hits would be determined by a percentage based on QB AWR. A QB with 90 AWR means that if they look and attempt to pass before the 3 seconds, they take a 10% pass ratings hit with their passing ratings being 90% represented instead of 100%. For example, P. Manning could basically look and then throw a split second later while only suffering a small ratings hit but R. Grossman would have to look and STARE the full 3 seconds to make that throw or suffer a significant pass ratings hit. Users could look and throw anytime with anybody but not waiting the allotted "focus" time would mean incurring a pass ratings hit on the throw, determined by the QB's AWR.

This would simulate low AWR QBs having to stare down receivers for the best throws while high AWR QBs could make look and quick pass throws, routinely. The visible QB head turn and look mechanic would simulate the CPU and the user defender having to actually follow the QB's eyes to make big plays and allow elite QB's to intentionally "look off" defenders before quickly passing to a different receiver. Also, the lack of displayed pass icons would force users to actually learn/remember which right analog stick direction, corresponds to each receiver read, adding a needed challenge.

So there it is and hopefully it's not as good as I think it is and other people can convince me of it. That way, not having something like this in Madden every year, will not frustrate me so much.<left vunder="" placement="" untouched="" normal="" jump="" ball=""><outside placement;normal="" vlow="" trajectory;higher="" untouched="" normal="" trajectory;normal="" velocity=""><left vshort="" leading="" untouched="" thrown="" directly="" at="" receiver.="" also="" combinations="" like="" rbp="" left="" down="" to="" throw="" low="" outside,="" etc.="" power="" differentiate="" each="" qb="" s="" low,="" normal="" high="" velocity,="" accordingly.="" throwing="" accuracy="" ranges="" would="" do="" the="" same="" for="" normal,="" placement="" and="" lead="" passes.=""></left></outside></left>

Interesting ideas.

First question. What camera view would this be in? I don't think it would work in the current view. The camera is too far back to be able to see where the QB is looking without any other visual representation than his head. I don't mind not having any visual representations for it. I actually think that would cause an interesting real life dynamic, of defenders seeing where a QB is looking, but not being exactly sure which receiver he is looking at. But the current camera doesn't lend itself to seeing something as nuanced as where the QB is looking. Would be fine for the AI obviously though.

I see what you are trying to do with the look at receivers for 3secs thing, but that is WAY too long. No one has to look at a receiver that long to be able to throw an accurate pass. A second, if that, is more than enough. If the QB is accurate in the first place anyway. You would need to throw to your first read almost all the time, because you aren't gonna get that much time in the pocket. Not to mention the fact that if you saw a receiver open, if you have to wait 3secs until you can throw it to them accurately, there is basically zero chance they will still be open.

I know that everyone would like QB awareness to mean more than it does, but I don't think that the best way is to make it so that low AWR QBs need to wait longer to be able to pass. They should probably do away with it altogether, and just have separate composure ratings in different categories to better differentiate the stars from the duds. I'm not totally against the delayed acquisition approach to AWR, but it definitely can't be anywhere near 3secs.

I'm not crazy about the way that you use the RS to select receivers with every direction mapped to a receiver. Reason being, is because that makes it similar to what we have now, or the VC, or the DT idea, in that you can always directly select the receiver that you want. It totally defeats the purpose of having only one pass button if there is a direction for every receiver. You might as well just have 5 pass buttons then.

The other thing is that it makes it way too easy to look off, just like DT or VC. You could just leave the QB looking at any old receiver and scan the field with your own eyes (provided this is in a skycam) and then quickly select the one you do want to throw to and then throw. Again, using these types of methods eliminates any reading or going through progressions in game and makes the passing less realistic and more of the same. I know you have that 3sec wait stipulation, but I'm not counting that, because that isn't acceptable lol.

I think that in order to have actual reading take place in the game, the RS needs to be used to cycle left/right to select a target. You should be able to cycle as fast as you can flick the stick. This mimics looking at receivers, allows you to look off, but provides a slight penalty for using a receiver on the opposite side of the field as a decoy. As soon as you have a direct access method of selecting a receiver, whether that is buttons for every receiver, double tap, or Vision Cone (except when using the RS which is how it should be played IMO lol) and have a skycam view, as a consequence, you eliminate the need to make any reads or progressions, in game. If that isn't a deal breaker, then that's fine, but for anyone that is proposing an idea for making reads in the game, if your idea is along the lines of the examples I just mentioned, just know that you haven't accomplished your goal.

Some interesting ideas here though, and I'm glad to see your A level stuff

[Thinking Out Loud]

Re: Would &quot;Fog Of War&quot; Be An Acceptable Addition To Madden's Default Passing View?

Interesting ideas.

First question. What camera view would this be in? I don't think it would work in the current view. The camera is too far back to be able to see where the QB is looking without any other visual representation than his head. I don't mind not having any visual representations for it. I actually think that would cause an interesting real life dynamic, of defenders seeing where a QB is looking, but not being exactly sure which receiver he is looking at. But the current camera doesn't lend itself to seeing something as nuanced as where the QB is looking. Would be fine for the AI obviously though.

It would use the current camera view and the head turn would be very deliberate and visually noticeable. I don't really see how you can say the current view is too far back for this when the QB's head can been seen. Being able to visually notice if the QB's head is turned right, middle or left is possible in the current view, IMO. The user would then have to determine which receivers are in that general area of the field and which the QB may be passing to. The whole premise is to make it challenging for the user defender to read where the QB is looking, not simple or impossible.

I see what you are trying to do with the look at receivers for 3secs thing, but that is WAY too long. No one has to look at a receiver that long to be able to throw an accurate pass. A second, if that, is more than enough. If the QB is accurate in the first place anyway. You would need to throw to your first read almost all the time, because you aren't gonna get that much time in the pocket. Not to mention the fact that if you saw a receiver open, if you have to wait 3secs until you can throw it to them accurately, there is basically zero chance they will still be open.

Uh yeah, all that is the whole point of the 3 seconds.LOL

I stated that 3 seconds was negotiable but the point of the universal time allotment is that it puts every QB on a level plain. Then ratings separate each QB from then on, the way it should be. Also, it forces users to make "reads" and look at a receiver early, anticipating that he will become open. "No one has to look at a receiver that long to be able to throw an accurate pass" just seems like an odd statement to make because accuracy on a pass during a game can have many factors. It is not just about looking and throwing, it's about being able to "focus" while all the other things are going on around the QB. Having great ratings but low AWR would amount to less "focus" and a pass ratings hit that affects the chances of making an accurate throw.

I know that everyone would like QB awareness to mean more than it does, but I don't think that the best way is to make it so that low AWR QBs need to wait longer to be able to pass. They should probably do away with it altogether, and just have separate composure ratings in different categories to better differentiate the stars from the duds. I'm not totally against the delayed acquisition approach to AWR, but it definitely can't be anywhere near 3secs.

It just semantics but when you state "be able to pass", that's misrepresenting what I suggested because a low AWR QB is "able" to pass at anytime. On the 3secs, I can't see it being any less than 2secs because what I think you are missing is this. I think the optimal VISUAL foundation for the most realistic passing mechanic would be a field level view similar to Backbreaker. ( To clarify and avoid any "so you are not interested in maximum realism" stuff, that would be the best foundation but many other factors would still be missing or not possible from that view) However, considering that the current view allows both offensive and defensive users the exact same view and having tried the BB view, I prefer the current. So, the users having the "god view" needs to be balanced with reasonable guidelines for the user to access players full ratings potential, IMO.

I'm not crazy about the way that you use the RS to select receivers with every direction mapped to a receiver. Reason being, is because that makes it similar to what we have now, or the VC, or the DT idea, in that you can always directly select the receiver that you want. It totally defeats the purpose of having only one pass button if there is a direction for every receiver. You might as well just have 5 pass buttons then.

The other thing is that it makes it way too easy to look off, just like DT or VC. You could just leave the QB looking at any old receiver and scan the field with your own eyes (provided this is in a skycam) and then quickly select the one you do want to throw to and then throw. Again, using these types of methods eliminates any reading or going through progressions in game and makes the passing less realistic and more of the same. I know you have that 3sec wait stipulation, but I'm not counting that, because that isn't acceptable lol.

Right here is where I will end it because this is where it stopped being about my actual idea.LOL

OnlyLT, you like what you like and that's cool. However, deciding to ignore a major part of my idea because you think "that isn't acceptable" and then comparing what's left to something else, has no merit. If bats had feathers they would basically be birds but they don't so they are bats. Same thing with the RS in CONJUNCTION with the negotiable 3secs, it is ALL of what it is. LOL

Last thing, I would be interested to see your ideal pass mechanic as well. Hopefully no, "if we had VR suits then........" stuff but using actual tech available in 2011. LOL

[Only1LT]

Re: Would &quot;Fog Of War&quot; Be An Acceptable Addition To Madden's Default Passing View?

It would use the current camera view and the head turn would be very deliberate and visually noticeable. I don't really see how you can say the current view is too far back for this when the QB's head can been seen. Being able to visually notice if the QB's head is turned right, middle or left is possible in the current view, IMO. The user would then have to determine which receivers are in that general area of the field and which the QB may be passing to. The whole premise is to make it challenging for the user defender to read where the QB is looking, not simple or impossible.

Uh yeah, all that is the whole point of the 3 seconds.LOL

I stated that 3 seconds was negotiable but the point of the universal time allotment is that it puts every QB on a level plain. Then ratings separate each QB from then on, the way it should be. Also, it forces users to make "reads" and look at a receiver early, anticipating that he will become open. "No one has to look at a receiver that long to be able to throw an accurate pass" just seems like an odd statement to make because accuracy on a pass during a game can have many factors. It is not just about looking and throwing, it's about being able to "focus" while all the other things are going on around the QB. Having great ratings but low AWR would amount to less "focus" and a pass ratings hit that affects the chances of making an accurate throw.

It just semantics but when you state "be able to pass", that's misrepresenting what I suggested because a low AWR QB is "able" to pass at anytime. On the 3secs, I can't see it being any less than 2secs because what I think you are missing is this. I think the optimal VISUAL foundation for the most realistic passing mechanic would be a field level view similar to Backbreaker. ( To clarify and avoid any "so you are not interested in maximum realism" stuff, that would be the best foundation but many other factors would still be missing or not possible from that view) However, considering that the current view allows both offensive and defensive users the exact same view and having tried the BB view, I prefer the current. So, the users having the "god view" needs to be balanced with reasonable guidelines for the user to access players full ratings potential, IMO.

Right here is where I will end it because this is where it stopped being about my actual idea.LOL

OnlyLT, you like what you like and that's cool. However, deciding to ignore a major part of my idea because you think "that isn't acceptable" and then comparing what's left to something else, has no merit. If bats had feathers they would basically be birds but they don't so they are bats. Same thing with the RS in CONJUNCTION with the negotiable 3secs, it is ALL of what it is. LOL

Last thing, I would be interested to see your ideal pass mechanic as well. Hopefully no, "if we had VR suits then........" stuff but using actual tech available in 2011. LOL

It would be hard for the person controlling the QB, because your idea removes all visual elements so the player has to rely solely on sight to know where he will throw. I know that your method has the RS with dedicated directions for receivers, but that doesn't preclude someone from hitting the wrong direction lol. Since your idea is based on Rec 1, Rec2, etc... and not Rec Left, Rec Middle, Rec Right, etc... it could be more confusing than necessary I think. Just my take.

I don't know why you would think that my statement that QBs don't need 3secs to look at a receiver to be accurate, is odd. It's the truth. QBs turn and fire almost instantly quite often, and still throw accurate passes. B Ballers back down and turn and fade and get a split second look at the basket and still swish the jumper. Jordan gets air, but I doubt he's ever stayed in the air longer than 1 second on a fadeaway lol. And since you shoot the ball at or near the apex of your jump, that means that the ball is shot in about half the total time you are in the air. So again, a half second is all it takes to be accurate. For those that don't have Jordan's hang time, like a Carmelo, who is not a great leaper, he has even less, and yet still can hit a fadeaway with his back to the basket.

It's an unconscious act and it takes much, much longer for your body to actually carry out the action than it takes your mind to decide what your body needs to do in order to hit the pass or the shot. So yes, 3secs is an extraordinarily long time to be required to throw an accurate pass.

I know you said that you can throw it anytime, but with an accuracy hit. My point is that in order to be your most accurate, you stated you need to look at the receiver for 3secs. Again, that is entirely too long if you are using real life as a guide.

I also don't know why you said that my last comments didn't pertain to your idea lol. Your idea has a direct access method just like the other mechanics I listed. It may be with the RS and not a button, but it is a direct access method, and as such, is susceptible to the same issues as the other direct access mechanics. I then listed what those issues are. The comments made in that section are the same as every other section. Namely, my observation of what I liked, what I didn't like, and what I think might make your idea better. If you take offense to that, I hope you know I meant none.

[extremeskins04]

Re: Would &quot;Fog Of War&quot; Be An Acceptable Addition To Madden's Default Passing View?

Sigh.. poor Grossman.. even after all these years, he's still being used as an example of a horrible QB. lol

Whats even worse is Grossman actually made it to a Super Bowl. Granted the defense did alot of the work, but he still had to put points on the board and be a leader. Yet people still hate on him.

[billsmetalbooze]

Re: Would &quot;Fog Of War&quot; Be An Acceptable Addition To Madden's Default Passing View?

i haven't read through all the replies but here's mine:

i proposed what i think is the same idea about a year ago: QB awareness is related to how many WR buttons you can read during the play.

i think it's an excellent idea, as it's been said, as it separates elite QBs from crappy ones.

right now the game compensates by giving poorer QBs lower accuracy. but this is not always the case in real life: many poor QBs have good or even excellent accuracy but cannot read the field fast enough and/or can't "feel" the pass rush.

excellent idea. make it an option you can turn on/off and everyone wins.

[iBlievN5]

Re: Would &quot;Fog Of War&quot; Be An Acceptable Addition To Madden's Default Passing View?

Passing Mechanic.

Our basic problems with Madden passing are
1. awareness is useless, so physically limited but cerebral/polished passers are minimalized,
2. you can pass anywhere at anytime unscrupulously,
3. you can't see where the qb is looking to go with the pass for zones, pump fakes are generally irrelevant, and
4. for me, it just looks better if the qb has been facing his wr when the throw is made.

so the idea is; make the field into 3 sections, L/R/MID and flick the R-Stick to each one. this would add difficulty and authenticity to passing as progression across the field can be seen and the impact maximized. the nuances of the mechanic would be,
1. higher awareness = quicker turns for speed of progression and the accuracy rating, which i propose take a hit after cycling, would recover faster/take a smaller hit,
2. pump fakes for higher awareness qb's cause bigger bites while lower rated qb's don't affect the D much if at all.
3. subtle shoulder fakes because that's just awesome.

[Thinking Out Loud]

Re: Would &quot;Fog Of War&quot; Be An Acceptable Addition To Madden's Default Passing View?

It would be hard for the person controlling the QB, because your idea removes all visual elements so the player has to rely solely on sight to know where he will throw. I know that your method has the RS with dedicated directions for receivers, but that doesn't preclude someone from hitting the wrong direction lol. Since your idea is based on Rec 1, Rec2, etc... and not Rec Left, Rec Middle, Rec Right, etc... it could be more confusing than necessary I think. Just my take.

I don't know why you would think that my statement that QBs don't need 3secs to look at a receiver to be accurate, is odd. It's the truth. QBs turn and fire almost instantly quite often, and still throw accurate passes. B Ballers back down and turn and fade and get a split second look at the basket and still swish the jumper. Jordan gets air, but I doubt he's ever stayed in the air longer than 1 second on a fadeaway lol. And since you shoot the ball at or near the apex of your jump, that means that the ball is shot in about half the total time you are in the air. So again, a half second is all it takes to be accurate. For those that don't have Jordan's hang time, like a Carmelo, who is not a great leaper, he has even less, and yet still can hit a fadeaway with his back to the basket.

It's an unconscious act and it takes much, much longer for your body to actually carry out the action than it takes your mind to decide what your body needs to do in order to hit the pass or the shot. So yes, 3secs is an extraordinarily long time to be required to throw an accurate pass.

I know you said that you can throw it anytime, but with an accuracy hit. My point is that in order to be your most accurate, you stated you need to look at the receiver for 3secs. Again, that is entirely too long if you are using real life as a guide.

I also don't know why you said that my last comments didn't pertain to your idea lol. Your idea has a direct access method just like the other mechanics I listed. It may be with the RS and not a button, but it is a direct access method, and as such, is susceptible to the same issues as the other direct access mechanics. I then listed what those issues are. The comments made in that section are the same as every other section. Namely, my observation of what I liked, what I didn't like, and what I think might make your idea better. If you take offense to that, I hope you know I meant none.

Well hopefully I will continue to be a member around here for sometime so just for future reference, I really can't see myself getting offended over posts about a passing mechanic from random people on the internet. LOL

I believe I misunderstood you because I thought you wanted to discuss other passing mechanics. It seems though, you just want to compare them to what you already believe works for you, IMO. That's cool and all but that's not the type of discussion I am interested in. I thought you meant share ideas and you would try to see things from a different POV. Instead, you are just looking at things from your own preset POV and that's more like a debate than a discussion, IMO.

I enjoy a spirited debate but not one about a "fairy tale" pass mechanic that only exists in MY head. LOL

In case you missed the last part of my previous post, I said I would be interested in seeing your ideas for a pass mechanic.

[Only1LT]

Re: Would &quot;Fog Of War&quot; Be An Acceptable Addition To Madden's Default Passing View?

Well hopefully I will continue to be a member around here for sometime so just for future reference, I really can't see myself getting offended over posts about a passing mechanic from random people on the internet. LOL

I believe I misunderstood you because I thought you wanted to discuss other passing mechanics. It seems though, you just want to compare them to what you already believe works for you, IMO. That's cool and all but that's not the type of discussion I am interested in. I thought you meant share ideas and you would try to see things from a different POV. Instead, you are just looking at things from your own preset POV and that's more like a debate than a discussion, IMO.

I enjoy a spirited debate but not one about a "fairy tale" pass mechanic that only exists in MY head. LOL

In case you missed the last part of my previous post, I said I would be interested in seeing your ideas for a pass mechanic.

I'm confused lol. We ARE discussing your idea for a passing mechanic. You outlined it. I'm going over it and making comments and observations. It's not about me not looking at any other perspectives, it's just me commenting on your idea. That, to me, is a discussion. I'm not sure what you were expecting lol.

Some of the aspects of your idea I think work, and some I don't. The same as every other idea that I comment on. The same as others do to my ideas. If you mean that I don't want to see things from another POV, because I don't agree with every aspect of your idea, then I don't know what to tell you.

I did see you ask for my ideas. I just didn't think it was appropriate to give them. This is your thread. Giving constructive feedback on your idea is one thing. Making it about my idea, to me is another. Not to mention that my ideas seem to illicit a certain type of response lol. You said you are a long time lurker, so you probably know what I mean. I didn't want to go down that road. It was just out of respect.

[=Tac=]

Re: Would &quot;Fog Of War&quot; Be An Acceptable Addition To Madden's Default Passing View?

Would be a great addition for Superstar mode.