The legend of Big Ben Grows

[BlackNGold]

Re: The legend of Big Ben Grows

Funny... I remember watching that game and noticing the horrible play call by the Titans during the final 5 minutes of the 4th being the reason they lost.

He made so many dumb throws last night, and the Steelers only scored 13 points. He gets way too much love for sloppy play.

^^^^^^^^^^
He's just mad because they're stuck with Tony Romo

[tripwire]

Re: The legend of Big Ben Grows

The problem with this statement is that it's cherry picked to simply support one side of a discussion...as many statements on both sides in this thread have been. Unfortunately, this is what's happened to the Operation Sports Forums in the recent years and is why I think we've seen a lot of good posters leave. But I digress...

The QB's you mentioned are for the most part, pocket passers with very limited mobility. If you put them behind the Steelers porous OLINE, they're going to have to run for their lives or get hit. Ben was sacked the 2nd most times last year, 2nd most in 2007, 4th most in 2006. I'm far from one of your low IQ guys so I realize that a lot of those sacks fall on Ben's shoulders for holding onto the ball too long, but I've also watched enough football to realize the OLINE doesn't give Ben the type of time that Peyton and Brees have. Both who rank in the bottom 5 in terms of sacks taken. Warner and Rivers are in the middle of the pack. That's not to say those QB's aren't very good QB's, but that they don't often face the constant pressure Ben does. Peyton rarely finds himself looking up from the carpet...except when he's playing a team like the Steelers or Ravens.

The entire notion that Ben is doing this against prevent D's doesn't make much sense. Why would the Titans be in a prevent D when the game is tied? Why were they able to get pressure with their front 4 early in the game, but when they weren't able to get pressure from the front 4, they are in prevent? I also don't recall the Cards playing prevent in the SB when Ben led the team down the field to the winning TD. I've had this discussion on here many times and if someone wants to claim the SB against the Seahawks was won despite Ben R...I'll agree 100%. However, I won't agree to that in the SB against the Cards because Ben was the reason they won that game IMO (Holmes was also terrific...and he had to be because Hines Ward was injured).

Are Ben's comeback wins overrated? Maybe...maybe not. Not all QB's have the intestinal fortitude to get it done in crunch time and maybe some of those other QB's have the game wrapped up earlier in the game so they don't have to get it done earlier. Fact is, a win is a win no matter how a QB gets there. At the end of the year, all that matters is what's in the W column.

Good post, but it will fall on deaf ears. I can pull up stats from past years when Ben's had over 200 yards and 2-3 tds in the first half before the running game takes over in the 2nd half to close the game out. You know, because you watch every game, but why bother explaining to the rest? They only believe what they're told and want to hear.

As for Thursday night, i'll play the silly game requested,
1st Q _ 4-6-0-1 (only mistake being the pick, shoot him now)
2nd Q_ 11-14-153-1 (add the Hail Mary for stat watchers)
3rd Q_ 2-4-12
4th Q_ 11-11-111 (he sucked)
OT _ 5-7-60

Am i missing something? Led them to 5 drives of 50+ yards with no running game against a top-10 D.

I can't believe i just responded to utter nonsense.

[CW McGraw]

Re: The legend of Big Ben Grows

The QB's you mentioned are for the most part, pocket passers with very limited mobility. If you put them behind the Steelers porous OLINE, they're going to have to run for their lives or get hit. Ben was sacked the 2nd most times last year, 2nd most in 2007, 4th most in 2006. I'm far from one of your low IQ guys so I realize that a lot of those sacks fall on Ben's shoulders for holding onto the ball too long, but I've also watched enough football to realize the OLINE doesn't give Ben the type of time that Peyton and Brees have. Both who rank in the bottom 5 in terms of sacks taken. Warner and Rivers are in the middle of the pack. That's not to say those QB's aren't very good QB's, but that they don't often face the constant pressure Ben does. Peyton rarely finds himself looking up from the carpet...except when he's playing a team like the Steelers or Ravens.

As you already stated, a number of those sacks are Ben's fault. What separates Brees, Brady, and Manning from Ben is that they make their lines look much better than they actually are. It's no coincidence that the Pats gave up so few sacks in 07 with Brady in charge and then suddenly gave up +40 with Cassell at QB. Brady, for the most part, can deal with pressure in a way that Ben can't. Brees reminds me alot of Dan Marino. Sure, he has a Pro Bowl LT protecting him, but his quick release makes him incredibly difficult to sack. I've watched enough football to realize that a great QB can make an average OL look great. I love Jake Long, but I know for a fact that if John Beck, Chad Henne, or Josh McCown was the Fins' QB last season instead of Chad Pennington, Jake would not have made the Pro Bowl. Ben makes his bad OL look bad. This is an indisputable fact. It is that fact that makes me say that he is not as good a QB as Brady, Manning, or Brees.

[z Revis]

Re: The legend of Big Ben Grows

There's a lot of homers in this thread. That's all I'll say.

[lasthour]

Re: The legend of Big Ben Grows

Any QB who can be thrown from a motorcycle, rehabbed, and help lead his team to ANOTHER NFL championship has my respect period. I personally do not care how a QB wins, all that counts is the win period.

We should not assume that if another QB was back there that they would be better. That is ALL speculations. I personally do not think any of the other QBs you guys named(maybe Brees) could have been in a motorcycle crash and came back as he did. Some people just got something that other people do not have and he's got something to show for it(2 superbowls rings)

[mKoz26]

Re: The legend of Big Ben Grows

Good post, but it will fall on deaf ears. I can pull up stats from past years when Ben's had over 200 yards and 2-3 tds in the first half before the running game takes over in the 2nd half to close the game out. You know, because you watch every game, but why bother explaining to the rest? They only believe what they're told and want to hear.

As for Thursday night, i'll play the silly game requested,
1st Q _ 4-6-0-1 (only mistake being the pick, shoot him now)
2nd Q_ 11-14-153-1 (add the Hail Mary for stat watchers)
3rd Q_ 2-4-12
4th Q_ 11-11-111 (he sucked)
OT _ 5-7-60

Am i missing something? Led them to 5 drives of 50+ yards with no running game against a top-10 D.

I can't believe i just responded to utter nonsense.

We're talking about last night. Just last night.

Look at what he did against the soft D: (which I already posted)

10/12 152 Yards + his only TD

Link

If you actually watched the game and saw what happened, you'd know that the D was soft at the end of each half and in OT. Is it coincidence that Ben did well in those situations? No, unless you're a Steelers' homer.

[CW McGraw]

Re: The legend of Big Ben Grows

We're talking about last night. Just last night.

Look at what he did against the soft D: (which I already posted)

10/12 152 Yards + his only TD

Link

If you actually watched the game and saw what happened, you'd know that the D was soft at the end of each half and in OT. Is it coincidence that Ben did well in those situations? No, unless you're a Steelers' homer.

You're refusing to connect the fact that in those situations Ben was running the no huddle and calling his own plays. The fact is that when he's given independence from Bruce Arians' *** backwards playcalling, Ben's really good.

[kehlis]

Re: The legend of Big Ben Grows

We're talking about last night. Just last night.

Look at what he did against the soft D: (which I already posted)

10/12 152 Yards + his only TD

Link

If you actually watched the game and saw what happened, you'd know that the D was soft at the end of each half and in OT. Is it coincidence that Ben did well in those situations? No, unless you're a Steelers' homer.

So the fact that they were running no huddle had nothing to do with the D getting soft?

I don't get the argument against a QB because of how his opponent played at one of the most critical points in the game.

So when can we give a QB credit? Only when he is facing a ferocious defense that is fully rested?

[mKoz26]

Re: The legend of Big Ben Grows

You're refusing to connect the fact that in those situations Ben was running the no huddle and calling his own plays. The fact is that when he's given independence from Bruce Arians' *** backwards playcalling, Ben's really good.

So the fact that they were running no huddle had nothing to do with the D getting soft?

I don't get the argument against a QB because of how his opponent played at one of the most critical points in the game.

So when can we give a QB credit? Only when he is facing a ferocious defense that is fully rested?

Does Ben call all of the plays in the no-huddle, or are they sent in by headset? I honestly don't know that, so as of now, I won't touch that subject.

The reason Ben Roethlisberger moved the ball so well in those situations is because of the soft zones, IMO. Which is why I'm taking his success in other situations to measure his performance. I watched the whole game and Ben didn't look too great until the Tennessee defense stopped attacking.

[kehlis]

Re: The legend of Big Ben Grows

Does Ben call all of the plays in the no-huddle, or are they sent in by headset? I honestly don't know that, so as of now, I won't touch that subject.

The reason Ben Roethlisberger moved the ball so well in those situations is because of the soft zones, IMO. Which is why I'm taking his success in other situations to measure his performance. I watched the whole game and Ben didn't look too great until the Tennessee defense stopped attacking.

Well if you are basing your opinion off of his performances as whole, fair enough, your opinion is your opinion.

I just don't think it is fair to look at his performance and denounce him because of how the defense chose to play.

[mKoz26]

Re: The legend of Big Ben Grows

I just don't think it is fair to look at his performance and denounce him because of how the defense chose to play.

I consider the defense + playcalling as a factor. Not the only factor, but one of many.

I find it funny when somebody says I can't use defensive playcalling as a reason for Ben's success, but then the same person says Ben was held back by his own team's playcalling.

[mjb2124]

Re: The legend of Big Ben Grows

There's a lot of homers in this thread. That's all I'll say.

A lot of haters as well... Like I said before, it goes both ways. Some people will never admit the good that Ben does and some will never admit the bad. Truth be told, I'm one of the more even keeled fans who calls it like he see's it. When the Steelers do good, I'll state that. When they do bad, I'll state that. I'm too old to do otherwise..

[mjb2124]

Re: The legend of Big Ben Grows

As you already stated, a number of those sacks are Ben's fault. What separates Brees, Brady, and Manning from Ben is that they make their lines look much better than they actually are. It's no coincidence that the Pats gave up so few sacks in 07 with Brady in charge and then suddenly gave up +40 with Cassell at QB. Brady, for the most part, can deal with pressure in a way that Ben can't. Brees reminds me alot of Dan Marino. Sure, he has a Pro Bowl LT protecting him, but his quick release makes him incredibly difficult to sack. I've watched enough football to realize that a great QB can make an average OL look great. I love Jake Long, but I know for a fact that if John Beck, Chad Henne, or Josh McCown was the Fins' QB last season instead of Chad Pennington, Jake would not have made the Pro Bowl. Ben makes his bad OL look bad. This is an indisputable fact. It is that fact that makes me say that he is not as good a QB as Brady, Manning, or Brees.

Agreed. I think something that many people think is that as Steelers fans, we think Ben is better than Brady, Manning or Brees. That's not what I'm saying (I can't speak for others, of course). I don't know where Ben ranks, but I wouldn't put him in front of those 3.

[mjb2124]

Re: The legend of Big Ben Grows

Does Ben call all of the plays in the no-huddle, or are they sent in by headset? I honestly don't know that, so as of now, I won't touch that subject.

From what I read in a local newspaper, he calls his own plays during the no-huddle. Most of it at the LOS.

[kehlis]

Re: The legend of Big Ben Grows

I find it funny when somebody says I can't use defensive playcalling as a reason for Ben's success, but then the same person says Ben was held back by his own team's playcalling.

Assuming you are talking about me, when did I say this?