The legend of Big Ben Grows

[mKoz26]

Re: The legend of Big Ben Grows

Yes Revis, those QB's wouldn't have more rings on the Steelers defense, because none of them could play behind that line. Most QB's can't play when they're getting beat up like that, while Ben is the exception to the rule. He's found ways to win despite it. Peyton would NEVER win behind that line, never. He always gets rattled when he's getting pressure a lot.

I don't understand it. He needs to put up better fantasy stats to be in the same league as the best? He did that in 2007, and people still make the same claims about him. The guy has proven it time and time again that he can get it done like any QB out there.

I think it's just the case of Ben becoming the new media hype machine guy. Just like Brady and Peyton, there's always going to be the hate.

You are stating hypotheticals as if they are facts. That kills your argument.

[mKoz26]

Re: The legend of Big Ben Grows

First off, I don't care what number his defense ranked. When Merriman/Williams broke out, their D was TOUGH. They were stopping the run, they were getting tons of pressure, they were forcing turnovers, it was a very good defense and they could of won a championship with it. But go ahead, the stats on an internet page always tell the real story....to people who don't watch the games.

Again, you are horribly wrong here, because Merriman and Brees played on the same team for a grand total of one year. This gets funnier by the minute, seeing you backup one assumption with another.

[steelcurtain311]

Re: The legend of Big Ben Grows

You are stating hypotheticals as if they are facts. That kills your argument.

So are you.

[mKoz26]

Re: The legend of Big Ben Grows

So are you.

Show me.

[z Revis]

Re: The legend of Big Ben Grows

First off, I don't care what number his defense ranked. When Merriman/Williams broke out, their D was TOUGH. They were stopping the run, they were getting tons of pressure, they were forcing turnovers, it was a very good defense and they could of won a championship with it. But go ahead, the stats on an internet page always tell the real story....to people who don't watch the games. You are the ones with the hypoctheticals of "If his defense wasn't so good..." when I gave you an example of his defense playing bad, and you discredit him for not scoring enough points, despite WINNING the game in the final minutes. Oh, and the game just so happens to be the SB.

Yes Revis, those QB's wouldn't have more rings on the Steelers defense, because none of them could play behind that line. Most QB's can't play when they're getting beat up like that, while Ben is the exception to the rule. He's found ways to win despite it. Peyton would NEVER win behind that line, never. He always gets rattled when he's getting pressure a lot.

I don't understand it. He needs to put up better fantasy stats to be in the same league as the best? He did that in 2007, and people still make the same claims about him. The guy has proven it time and time again that he can get it done like any QB out there.

I think it's just the case of Ben becoming the new media hype machine guy. Just like Brady and Peyton, there's always going to be the hate.

Have you ever thought that maybe those QB's actually make their O-line look better than they really are? And that Ben makes his O-line look worse than they really are? Someone on OS said it the other day and hit it right on the nail...It's not a coincidence that in 07 the Pats only gave up 17 sacks behind Brady, but last year behind Cassel they gave up like 40+ sacks. Great QB's make their O-line look a lot better than they really are. And did you not hear whoever it was on Thursday night say that Big Ben actually apologized to his O-line because they're not as bad as the media makes them out to be. Big Ben actually apologized to them, and even said that it's his fault that he takes as many sacks as he does. And it is, he holds on to the ball too long and is always scrambling around and taking sacks that wouldn't be sacks if he actually sat in the pocket and got rid of the ball on time. And I can't believe you said that Peyton would "NEVER" win behind that O-line. Did you not see any Colts games last year? He was getting hit/sacked/flustered out of the pocket so many times, and yet he won the MVP. Too bad his defense couldn't stop Sproles in their Playoff game or they would've won. But damn, the Steelers D sure didn't have a problem stopping Sproles. lol.

[steelcurtain311]

Re: The legend of Big Ben Grows

The reason I discredit him is because he played sloppy last night, and is overrated because of his defense.

Without his defense he isn't good, according to you. When I present you examples of him winning games without his defense, you claim he didn't put up enough points.

Look at the plays this guy makes. Look at the amount of comebacks he has. Look at his play when the game is on the line. All of it factored in, playing behind one of the worst offensive lines in football. This is elite-QB stuff. To discount a guy because of the team he plays on, that's just stupid. You can say all of the same **** about Tom Brady, as many people did a few years ago. "It's just his team, it's just his system, he's not that good" blah blah blah.

[z Revis]

Re: The legend of Big Ben Grows

You are stating hypotheticals as if they are facts. That kills your argument.

I'll admit, I am too. But only because I think Big Ben gets way too much credit. His defense is incredible and is the main reason for their success. And I can't possibly see how if you gave Peyton or Brees the Steelers D, that they wouldn't have more rings than they do now.

[z Revis]

Re: The legend of Big Ben Grows

Without his defense he isn't good, according to you.

He wouldn't be. Take away the Steelers D and their horrible. Take away Big Ben, and well...they're still pretty damn good.

[steelcurtain311]

Re: The legend of Big Ben Grows

Have you ever thought that maybe those QB's actually make their O-line look better than they really are? And that Ben makes his O-line look worse than they really are? Someone on OS said it the other day and hit it right on the nail...It's not a coincidence that in 07 the Pats only gave up 17 sacks behind Brady, but last year behind Cassel they gave up like 40+ sacks. Great QB's make their O-line look a lot better than they really are. And did you not hear whoever it was on Thursday night say that Big Ben actually apologized to his O-line because they're not as bad as the media makes them out to be. Big Ben actually apologized to them, and even said that it's his fault that he takes as many sacks as he does. And it is, he holds on to the ball too long and is always scrambling around and taking sacks that wouldn't be sacks if he actually sat in the pocket and got rid of the ball on time. And I can't believe you said that Peyton would "NEVER" win behind that O-line. Did you not see any Colts games last year? He was getting hit/sacked/flustered out of the pocket so many times, and yet he won the MVP. Too bad his defense couldn't stop Sproles in their Playoff game or they would've won. But damn, the Steelers D sure didn't have a problem stopping Sproles. lol.

Ben SOMETIMES holds onto the ball too long. This is a misconception, blown out of proportion by people. It's not every play. Like for instance, there was a play in the Titans game where he busts out of a sack, and then runs backwards and holds onto the ball when he should of thrown it away, and eventually gets sacked. Dumb play, held onto the ball too long. But then later on in the game, there's Jevon Kearse coming off of the corner, going completely UNTOUCHED in a straight line right towards Ben, and massacres him. That's Ben's fault?

Look at the number of sacks Ben took early in his career, compared to now. You know what the key factor is? Jeff Hartings knees going bad, and then retiring. The Steelers never found an answer at the C position. His line is terrible, period. Sometimes he does hold onto the ball too long, yeah, but that doesn't take away from his line being terrible.

And yeah, he DOES make them better. There isn't one guy on the line that is a legitimate starting offensive lineman, save for maybe, Max Starks. These are all second-third string guys who have no business being starters, but the Steelers have no options. No QB on the planet is going to make them look great.

Please, Peyton at least would get a pocket last year. Ben rarely ever even gets that much. Especially against tough defenses like the Titans. I'm not bashing Peyton, he's an amazing QB, but I don't think he could ever find the success Ben has behind such a bad offensive line. He isn't as mobile, he isn't as tough.

[steelcurtain311]

Re: The legend of Big Ben Grows

He wouldn't be. Take away the Steelers D and their horrible. Take away Big Ben, and well...they're still pretty damn good.

That's just ludicrous. He's won so many games for them, in situations where so many other QB's don't win. He makes plays that no other QB in the league will make. Why don't you Youtube him or something and watch a highlights video? The man makes throws with 300 lb defenders hanging around his waist.

[mKoz26]

Re: The legend of Big Ben Grows

The reason I discredit him is because he played sloppy last night, and is overrated because of his defense.

Without his defense he isn't good, according to you. When I present you examples of him winning games without his defense, you claim he didn't put up enough points.

Look at the plays this guy makes. Look at the amount of comebacks he has. Look at his play when the game is on the line. All of it factored in, playing behind one of the worst offensive lines in football. This is elite-QB stuff. To discount a guy because of the team he plays on, that's just stupid. You can say all of the same **** about Tom Brady, as many people did a few years ago. "It's just his team, it's just his system, he's not that good" blah blah blah.

You obviously still haven't gotten my point, so I'll just leave you there to make excuses for your man. You can't absorb a point and respond to it, so there is no point in me debating with you. This time is a real good night.

[z Revis]

Re: The legend of Big Ben Grows

That's just ludicrous. He's won so many games for them, in situations where so many other QB's don't win. He makes plays that no other QB in the league will make. Why don't you Youtube him or something and watch a highlights video? The man makes throws with 300 lb defenders hanging around his waist.

How is that ludicrous? If it weren't for the Steelers D, they wouldn't have been in the Super Bowl or even made the Playoffs for that matter. And every QB in the league makes plays that other QB's can't. Peyton makes plenty of throws that Ben would never make, or even attempt to make. Same with Brees, Brady, etc.

[z Revis]

Re: The legend of Big Ben Grows

Ben SOMETIMES holds onto the ball too long. This is a misconception, blown out of proportion by people. It's not every play. Like for instance, there was a play in the Titans game where he busts out of a sack, and then runs backwards and holds onto the ball when he should of thrown it away, and eventually gets sacked. Dumb play, held onto the ball too long. But then later on in the game, there's Jevon Kearse coming off of the corner, going completely UNTOUCHED in a straight line right towards Ben, and massacres him. That's Ben's fault?

Look at the number of sacks Ben took early in his career, compared to now. You know what the key factor is? Jeff Hartings knees going bad, and then retiring. The Steelers never found an answer at the C position. His line is terrible, period. Sometimes he does hold onto the ball too long, yeah, but that doesn't take away from his line being terrible.

And yeah, he DOES make them better. There isn't one guy on the line that is a legitimate starting offensive lineman, save for maybe, Max Starks. These are all second-third string guys who have no business being starters, but the Steelers have no options. No QB on the planet is going to make them look great.

Please, Peyton at least would get a pocket last year. Ben rarely ever even gets that much. Especially against tough defenses like the Titans. I'm not bashing Peyton, he's an amazing QB, but I don't think he could ever find the success Ben has behind such a bad offensive line. He isn't as mobile, he isn't as tough.

I'm quite sure I just said that Big Ben apologized to his line, and said that they're not as bad as the media makes them out to be, and that it's his fault that he gets sacked so much. I'm pretty sure I'll take Bens word over some homer Steelers fan on the Internet.

And you completely ignored my main point. Great QB's, like Manning and Brady make their O-lines look better than they really are. It's not a coincidence that in 07 the Pats offensive line led the league in least sacks with 17, but once Brady was gone and Cassel took over, they gave up 40+ sacks.

Oh and saying Peyton isn't as tough is completely made up and hypothetical. You can't prove that by any means and I'm not sure why you even said that. If anything, he's more tough than Ben. Peyton has yet, in his entire 10+ year career, to miss a game or even a snap for that matter. Peyton clearly isn't as mobile though. I'll agree with that.

[steelcurtain311]

Re: The legend of Big Ben Grows

How is that ludicrous? If it weren't for the Steelers D, they wouldn't have been in the Super Bowl or even made the Playoffs for that matter. And every QB in the league makes plays that other QB's can't. Peyton makes plenty of throws that Ben would never make, or even attempt to make. Same with Brees, Brady, etc.

If it weren't for his defense, Tom Brady would never win a SB. Nor would Peyton of. It's a dumb point that you can make about any QB ever. SB's aren't won by one person or one element.

So you're saying if the Steelers had a bottom 10 defense they wouldn't make the playoffs? I agree. So does Drew Brees.

So that's now the scale we judge QB's on? They have to have a terrible defense in order to be an elite QB? Great.

[z Revis]

Re: The legend of Big Ben Grows

If it weren't for his defense, Tom Brady would never win a SB. Nor would Peyton of. It's a dumb point that you can make about any QB ever. SB's aren't won by one person or one element.

So you're saying if the Steelers had a bottom 10 defense they wouldn't make the playoffs? I agree. So does Drew Brees.

So that's now the scale we judge QB's on? They have to have a terrible defense in order to be an elite QB? Great.

You're not fully understanding my point. It's the fact that those QB's can carry their team to victories on a consistent basis, regardless of if their defense is playing bad. They've proven time and time again that they can win consistently with an average/below average defense. If you take away Big Ben from the Steelers, they're still a Playoff team IMO. If you take away Peyton or Brees from their teams, they're nowhere near the level they would be with them, and would probably have trouble winning 4 or 5 games.