MVP Discussion Thread

[ImTellinTim]

Re: MVP Discussion Thread

The argument you'll hear is "that's what offensive player of the year is for". My question is why can't a player be both?

And if the Vikings happen to miss the playoffs on a tiebreaker, which is looking like a real possibility, that will probably disqualify him from MVP consideration out of hand. Which to me is stupid.

[SteelersFreak]

Re: MVP Discussion Thread

Ugh enough of the AP talk, sorry. Elite running back gets you 7 and 6 chasing for the wild card. An elite QB gets you in first place chasing for the Superbowl. So how in today's NFL can you not pick a QB? Manning or Brady honestly.

Sent from my Rezound using Tapatalk 2

Clearly there's no bias here. None whatsoever.

[TheShizNo1]

If there was ever a case for another co-MVP year, this definitely fits it. I think both Manning and AP more than deserve it.

[StanleyStutters]

Re: MVP Discussion Thread

Sorry for the double post here, but for those who say Manning? I don't understand why.

First off, you have to ignore the injury. This isn't the comeback player of the year award. As great a story as both him and AP are, it has no baring on the award itself. It's most "valuable".

Now we're talking about a player in Manning, that came to a team that went to the playoffs with Tim Tebow. TIM TEBOW!! This team won 8 games with maybe the worst starting QB in the entire league. While the MVP, yes is an individual award, if this team didn't already have a solid core in place, then Manning's numbers wouldn't mean a damn thing.

But let's take a look at those numbers.

First, Manning doesn't lead in any statistical category for QBs. Not one, and plays on a team with the 4th best defense in the entire league.

AP? Yards by close to 500, YPC, YPG by over 30, and has 20 runs for 20+ yards, better than the next RB by 9. Meanwhile, he plays on the team with the worst passing attack in the league, literally ranked dead last. He's averaging more YPC than some teams average Yards per completion. While they rank 4th in rushing at 160 yards per game. Meaning out of the 160 yards they are averaging a game, AP rushes for 130 of those. That's 81% of the teams rushing offense and 40% of the teams offense, at RB, by HIMSELF! Every defense the Vikings play against is keyed into stopping him, and they can't do it.

What's even more impressive, and puzzling at the same time, is Peterson has had 18 carries or fewer in half of Minnesota's games this season. Yes, there have been seven occasions this year where the game's best running back has been handed the ball 18 times or less. (Not coincidentally, Minnesota's record in those seven games is 2-5.)

Comparing that to a QB is whole different beast. Not only do you have to stop the QB, but also you have to stop the 4-5 receivers on the field that he's looking to throw to, and when talking about any of the elite QBs, that is really hard to do. Especially when you have the core that Manning has at his disposal.

But when you only have to focus on one guy, and for a team to be that one dimensional on offense, to have won 8 games and a chance to make the playoffs, I don't understand how that can be disregarded. This man is literally ALL the Vikings have.

Their only other threat, Percy Harvin has been hurt. The Vikings are trotting CFL quality receivers out there with a QB that might be worse than Mark Sanchez, if that's even possible.

Oh and by the way, he's on pace to break one of the longest standing records in the NFL. But that doesn't mean anything either.

You make some excellent points in favor of Peterson, but I disagree with your arguments against Peyton. You're right the Broncos made the playoffs with Tebow, but look at how that team played last season. They won 9 games (counting playoffs), eight of those games were decided by 7 points or less, and four of them were won in OT. It'd be nearly impossible for them to repeat that success with Tebow this year. So far this year they have 11 wins, only one was decided by 7 points or fewer, and none of them went into OT.

The Denver offense under Tebow was nothing special. They managed to score 25+ points in only three of their 18 games. 15 games into this season and they've already hit that number 11 times.

Manning may not lead in any passing stats, but he is top-5 in Completion %, YPA, TDs, and Passer Rating, he ranks 6th in yards. I also think it's unfair for him to lose votes because he has a good team around him. Why should a player be punished because his front office has been successful and why should another player be rewarded because his front office hasn't been as successful? In fact the Broncos' defense has probably hurt Peyton's stats. If he was on a team where he needed to throw late in games he'd probably be 1st in some of those stats.

If you take Peyton off of the Broncos they wouldn't be as bad as the Vikings without Peterson, but there's no way they'd be 11-3 and on their way to a first round bye. They might be a playoff team because of how weak their division is, but they wouldn't scare anyone in the playoffs like they do now.

[JODYE]

Re: MVP Discussion Thread

No, but put a serviceable QB in there and guarantee they still make the playoffs.

Vikings? Not a chance.

The term value means, who means most to the their teams success. While Peyton is valuable, would the Broncos still be a playoff team without him? Given recent history and how well their defense is playing, the answer is yes. How much they scare someone is irrelevant.

Would the Vikings even be in the hunt without Peterson? Well, stats prove that that would be a resounding NO. Peterson has more value in terms of what he is providing his team, which is a chance to actually make the playoffs. Broncos would have done that without Manning, they've already shown they could.

He deserves comeback player of the year, but the MVP belongs to Peterson and it's not close to me.

[jth1331]

Re: MVP Discussion Thread

I really wish people would stop comparing this years Bronco team to last years.
Last year, the Broncos got freakin miracles to win games. Freakin miracles. That won't happen again in 50 years probably.

With Manning, the offense is dangerous, teams fear the Broncos actually passing the ball. The offense takes time off, plays close, and energizes the defense so they don't have to think they need to do it all.

An average QB, and I bet they are probably hovering around .500 at best. We are talking about a 4-5 wins drop right there.

[StanleyStutters]

Re: MVP Discussion Thread

No, but put a serviceable QB in there and guarantee they still make the playoffs.

Vikings? Not a chance.

The term value means, who means most to the their teams success. While Peyton is valuable, would the Broncos still be a playoff team without him? Given recent history and how well their defense is playing, the answer is yes. How much they scare someone is irrelevant.

Would the Vikings even be in the hunt without Peterson? Well, stats prove that that would be a resounding NO. Peterson has more value in terms of what he is providing his team, which is a chance to actually make the playoffs. Broncos would have done that without Manning, they've already shown they could.

He deserves comeback player of the year, but the MVP belongs to Peterson and it's not close to me.

Again I don't think it's fair to punish Peyton because his front office built a competitive team and it's not fair to reward Peterson because his team didn't. And there's no guarantee that they're a playoff team without Manning. They had a ridiculous run last year and barley squeaked in at 8-8, if Tebow was still there they'd be lucky to go 8-8 and would only make the playoffs because of how weak their division is.

Also you could make the argument that a player that takes a .500 team and elevates them to a SB contender is just as much, if not more valuable than a player that takes a bad team and elevates them to a team fighting for a playoff spot.

[wwharton]

Re: MVP Discussion Thread

No, but put a serviceable QB in there and guarantee they still make the playoffs.

Vikings? Not a chance.

The term value means, who means most to the their teams success. While Peyton is valuable, would the Broncos still be a playoff team without him? Given recent history and how well their defense is playing, the answer is yes. How much they scare someone is irrelevant.

Would the Vikings even be in the hunt without Peterson? Well, stats prove that that would be a resounding NO. Peterson has more value in terms of what he is providing his team, which is a chance to actually make the playoffs. Broncos would have done that without Manning, they've already shown they could.

He deserves comeback player of the year, but the MVP belongs to Peterson and it's not close to me.

There are many quality arguments for Peterson but teams don't play to make the playoffs. They play to win it all. So saying the Broncos may still make the playoffs doesn't matter when the team we look at now is in line for a 1st round bye and a serious threat to win the superbowl. It's not a matter of Peterson not being worthy bc his team isn't in the same light, but it also doesn't make sense to ignore this effect Peyton is having... on a team that was not built for him.

[JODYE]

Re: MVP Discussion Thread

There are many quality arguments for Peterson but teams don't play to make the playoffs. They play to win it all. So saying the Broncos may still make the playoffs doesn't matter when the team we look at now is in line for a 1st round bye and a serious threat to win the superbowl. It's not a matter of Peterson not being worthy bc his team isn't in the same light, but it also doesn't make sense to ignore this effect Peyton is having... on a team that was not built for him.

Give Peyton a ball. The team doesn't need to be built for him.

The same can be said about AP. These guys are special players. No discrediting that.

How deep they go is irrelevant in this argument. If that was the case then Manning should have won it over LT in 07.

My point is not to argue that Peyton is not valuable, because that would be foolish, but to say, this year he's been more valuable than a guy that in the last 9 games has amassed more rushing yards by himself than his whole team has passing yards, would be doing AP an injustice. To say he's been just valuable is a massive understatement. Pile that on with all the other impressive stats he's piled up, basically going 1 on 11 every game, I can't possibly find myself choosing anyone else.

Without him, that Vikings team would be a 3 win team, at best.

[mestevo]

Re: MVP Discussion Thread

Give Peyton a ball. The team doesn't need to be built for him.

The same can be said about AP. These guys are special players. No discrediting that.

How deep they go is irrelevant in this argument. If that was the case then Manning should have won it over LT in 07.

My point is not to argue that Peyton is not valuable, because that would be foolish, but to say, this year he's been more valuable than a guy that in the last 9 games has amassed more rushing yards by himself than his whole team has passing yards, would be doing AP an injustice. To say he's been just valuable is a massive understatement. Pile that on with all the other impressive stats he's piled up, basically going 1 on 11 every game, I can't possibly find myself choosing anyone else.

Without him, that Vikings team would be a 3 win team, at best.

So your argument is that he's so valuable they've only lost almost half of their games rather than 79% of them? Do you really wonder why people doubt AP is MVP with arguments like that?

You actively marganizlie everything that provides a benefit to Manning, comparing the Denver teams making the playoffs like an Apples to Apples comparison when that Denver team was one of a dozen plays from missing them in a 3-way tie at 8-8 in their division. Meanwhile Manning has walked in to new/re-implemented offense and is contending for the #1 spot in the entire conference...

If anything Manning and the Broncos are making it look too easy, opening the door for Brady to step in and take MVP. If he would have beat the 49ers I'd expect he'd probably be the favorite at this point (if he still isn't, having a hell of a season himself and some good late season prime time performances).

[TRC]

Re: MVP Discussion Thread

Give Peyton a ball. The team doesn't need to be built for him.

The same can be said about AP. These guys are special players. No discrediting that.

How deep they go is irrelevant in this argument. If that was the case then Manning should have won it over LT in 07.

My point is not to argue that Peyton is not valuable, because that would be foolish, but to say, this year he's been more valuable than a guy that in the last 9 games has amassed more rushing yards by himself than his whole team has passing yards, would be doing AP an injustice. To say he's been just valuable is a massive understatement. Pile that on with all the other impressive stats he's piled up, basically going 1 on 11 every game, I can't possibly find myself choosing anyone else.

Without him, that Vikings team would be a 3 win team, at best.

It would be interesting to see how AP would perform on a new team, with a new offense, and with new coaches. Would he immediately comand respect and become the new team leader??? Does AP's play immediately make the team a SB contender??? Does AP work with his new (possibly young) offensive line during the off-season and after practice so that everyone becomes a better player?? To me, this is what makes a player MVP.

AP is having an amazing year and definitely deserves consideration for MVP. He will have to break Eric Dickerson's rushing record to receive the MVP distinction.

Comparing Denver's team under Tebow vs Manning is just ridiculous. Even with Denver's D, Tebow would not have won as many games as the Vikings have this year. Denver's D improvement this year has been directly attributed to the addition of PFM. They can now rest between series and can attack from the edges once they have a lead. Players also want to play better for Manning.

[JODYE]

Re: MVP Discussion Thread

So your argument is that he's so valuable they've only lost almost half of their games rather than 79% of them? Do you really wonder why people doubt AP is MVP with arguments like that?

You actively marganizlie everything that provides a benefit to Manning, comparing the Denver teams making the playoffs like an Apples to Apples comparison when that Denver team was one of a dozen plays from missing them in a 3-way tie at 8-8 in their division. Meanwhile Manning has walked in to new/re-implemented offense and is contending for the #1 spot in the entire conference...

If anything Manning and the Broncos are making it look too easy, opening the door for Brady to step in and take MVP. If he would have beat the 49ers I'd expect he'd probably be the favorite at this point (if he still isn't, having a hell of a season himself and some good late season prime time performances).

Well, unfortunately, the Vikings can't have 11 APs on the field at the same time, so that is a knock, and is the biggest flaw in an individual award in a game that requires other players playing well to help you succeed. Biggest beneficiaries obviously being the QB, because they "touch the ball the most".

That's the thing though, AP doesn't have "those other guys" to rely on. He doesn't have another go to player on his team to take pressure off of him. He is THE ONLY guy.

Have you watched any Vikings games? Honestly? Have you seen how horrendous their pass offense is, or how inept Christian Ponder is as a QB? Painful would be a generous term to describe it.

I'm not marginalizing anything, and in fact the only thing Manning has in his case for the MVP is his team's record. If anything, there has been a drastic overstatement of the incredible god like season Manning has put together, which some how finds him not leading in any category that measures QB play. So I guess another question should be posed and that is should you even be in the talks for MVP if you're not even having the best year at your position?

To ignore the pieces that Denver already had in place before Manning even got there, and to imply that he had to teach himself all these new tricks to fit in with a Denver offense, which is essentially the exact offense they ran in Indianapolis is misinformed and shortsighted.

Comparing Denver's team under Tebow vs Manning is just ridiculous. Even with Denver's D, Tebow would not have won as many games as the Vikings have this year. Denver's D improvement this year has been directly affected by the addition of PFM. They can now rest between series and can attack from the edges once they have a lead. Players also want to play better for Manning.

This statement, works against you, because it's another testament to how good that team and more specifically that defense was, before Manning got there.

Tebow was THAT bad, and the Broncos D somehow still looked THAT good.

Would he immediately comand respect and become the new team leader??? Does AP's play immediately make the team a SB contender??? Does AP work with his new (possibly young) offensive line during the off-season and after practice so that everyone becomes a better player?? To me, this is what makes a player MVP.

And you know that AP doesn't put in extra work? When he's widely regarded as the hardest working player in the league. Okay.

That is a porous argument and doesn't hold any weight in this discussion.

[jth1331]

Re: MVP Discussion Thread

I'm tired of hearing this 1 vs 11 argument you got going on for Peterson.
He still has a decent OL, and a playmaker at Harvin til he got sidelined. Plus a decent TE.
Ponder might be awful, but geez.

[Bmore Irish]

Re: MVP Discussion Thread

i think this discussion has begun to exemplify how hard it is to compare different positions, especially when one of them is quarterback

[kehlis]

Re: MVP Discussion Thread

When Peterson went down last year Gerhart had two good games and the Vikings went 1-1. If people are going to bring up the ridiculous argument of what Tebow did last year with the "same" team then Manning voters can bring that up.

Remember, Tebow replaced a qb who on that same team went 1-4. Tebow got very very lucky but still got them to 8-8.

Whats the rotating position in this cycle? Orton, Tebow, Manning.

Those of you saying that Manning is doing what he is doing with a solid team in place are arguing against Orton going 1-4 with this same team and Tebow going 7-4. Manning is now 11-3 with that same team.

Manning is more valuable to the Broncos than stats can show, the growth many of the Broncos have shown has been amazing since he got there.

I wanted to point all that out. My vote would actually be for Peterson but some of the people knocking Manning for whatever reasons has been getting under my skin.