Lockout/CBA Discussion Thread

[pietasterp]

Re: Lockout/CBA Discussion Thread

I think I would pretty much agree with most of the general sentiment here. The problems are, as always, multi-factorial. I am not privy to the details of the issues, and certainly the coverage here in the States is less exhaustive and insightful than I'd like it to be, and anyway at this point, I'm just way too busy to and uninterested to delve into the nuances of the CBA and the issues at stake. It's all just too bad, as the last season was a pretty good ride. I'm normally a sucker for labor strife in pro sports (weird, I know...I guess I enjoy the confrontation?), but I'm tapped out right now.

Please, someone poke me when the season's back, so I can go back to wailing on the Wings for their poor play. Or the Grand Rapids Griffins wearing the winged wheel sweaters, since half our team will probably still be abroad by the time the puck drops...

[DrJones]

Re: Lockout/CBA Discussion Thread

Not sure I agree with this... Tampa has proven that if you put a winner together, the people will come. We have a GREAT owner here who "gets it" (because of his ties to Boston - understanding the nature of professional sports) and the people did come. I have the privilege of watching Stamkos play on a daily basis, and I believe we in the Tampa area know how good this kid is and not take him granted. I can't speak for every team in the south, but hockey in Tampa is healthy with a solid fan base and great enthusiasm for our team...

I like Tampa's current front office, and I don't doubt the enthusiasm within the rink, but I do wonder about what "healthy" means. According to Forbes, the Lightning lost 8.5M in 2010/11, the 3rd biggest loss among NHL teams. Without the 9 playoff games that year, their losses would've been close to those of the money-pit Coyotes. Nothing wrong with Tampa's attendance (2011/12 avg 18,468, 96.2% capacity), but their ticket prices are dirt cheap (avg $37.73, 3rd-lowest in the league), meaning it's nigh-impossible for them to turn a profit in a gate-driven industry.

Also, do people watch Bolts' games at home on TV? In bars? I can't find any 2011/12 numbers; the 10/11 numbers imply that an average of 35000 people watched Lightning games on the Sunshine Network. Sounds low to me (although 3x that of Panthers games, LOL), but that may be deceptive; I have no idea how many homes Sunshine reaches.

[jyoung]

Re: Lockout/CBA Discussion Thread

The TV ratings for the Predators are awful here in Nashville.

Random infomercials routinely score higher ratings than Predators games.

[cdawg44]

Re: Potential Issues with the CBA

Well... MLB's system isn't ideal, either. The Royals and Indians are turning a profit because they're choosing to fatten their wallets rather than making their teams more competitive. Teams on the dole should never be turning a profit.



Which brings up another peeve of mine with the NHL powers-that-be. There's always talk of southern teams being important for a "national TV footprint", yet the NHL's national broadcaster only shows Detroit, Chicago, or northeastern teams. Are we somehow to believe that without teams in Miami and Phoenix, NBC never would've agreed to pay the NHL $200M per season to show Flyers/Rangers games every week?

I totally agree with your Dr. Jones, however this is a similar arguement that fell on deaf ears when Conference realignment broke out in major college football. These tv execs must be telling Bettman and co. that if they have these teams in these markets it will help with their tv contract. I guess the thinking is, that if there is a team in Miami, then more people in Miami will tune in for a Thursday night NBC sports network game between Philly and Washington. It makes no sense to me at all, but how else do you explain the NHL in Pheonix and Miami and Big East football in Boise and San Diego. Expand and expand into large markets, even if they don't care about your sport and we will reward you with more dollars in the tv contract is driving the bus in a lot of our sports now.

[DrJones]

Re: Potential Issues with the CBA

I totally agree with your Dr. Jones, however this is a similar arguement that fell on deaf ears when Conference realignment broke out in major college football. These tv execs must be telling Bettman and co. that if they have these teams in these markets it will help with their tv contract. I guess the thinking is, that if there is a team in Miami, then more people in Miami will tune in for a Thursday night NBC sports network game between Philly and Washington. It makes no sense to me at all, but how else do you explain the NHL in Pheonix and Miami and Big East football in Boise and San Diego. Expand and expand into large markets, even if they don't care about your sport and we will reward you with more dollars in the tv contract is driving the bus in a lot of our sports now.

Admittedly, my NCAA knowledge is limited (says the guy who worked on a college baseball game, oops), but it's my understanding that there are large financial incentives for the likes of Boise State to join a bigger conference, therefore such moves would be initiated by the team, not TV. Am I correct on this?

As to your larger point, I find it difficult to believe that anybody credible from ESPN or the networks ever whispered sweet nothings to Bettman about Sun Belt teams being the key to TV riches. Most likely it's something he (or one of his toadies) told himself. The NHL is the most provincial of sports (in the US, anyway), and NBC knows this. People watch their own teams and aren't particularly interested in others. The only thing that might change that would be the emergence of a US-born generational (ie, at least Crosby or early-Ovi level) superstar.

[cdawg44]

Re: Potential Issues with the CBA

Admittedly, my NCAA knowledge is limited (says the guy who worked on a college baseball game, oops), but it's my understanding that there are large financial incentives for the likes of Boise State to join a bigger conference, therefore such moves would be initiated by the team, not TV. Am I correct on this?

As to your larger point, I find it difficult to believe that anybody credible from ESPN or the networks ever whispered sweet nothings to Bettman about Sun Belt teams being the key to TV riches. Most likely it's something he (or one of his toadies) told himself. The NHL is the most provincial of sports (in the US, anyway), and NBC knows this. People watch their own teams and aren't particularly interested in others. The only thing that might change that would be the emergence of a US-born generational (ie, at least Crosby or early-Ovi level) superstar.

Well on the college football front, sometimes it is the school but most times it is the Conferences starting the ball rolling because they know more money is coming their way. When the schools start the process, most times their major arguement is: "we could bring in a bucnh more money in to your tv deal" and then the leagues often run it by ESPN and others to see if it really helps. This is a similar arguement that is used to want to get schools that play college sports in the Philadelpha, Boston and New York markets. Even though college football ain't even close to the most popular sport in those towns, they have so many people that if you just got 10% of the population that watches college football its more people you reach than the entire population of Birmingham, Alabama, where almost everyone loves college football.

Anyway back to our regularly scheduled program, if what you are saying is true then Bettman has to be really, really mentally challenged. I just threw that theory out there, because that is the reality that I have seen with college sports. Plus, I just couldn't come up with any another possible explainations to explain why Bettman insisted on going down this path. I just don't see where Sun Belt teams make a difference honestly in the long run and these teams are just dragging the league down. I love my team, but I know we ain't helping this CBA situation at all with the realities of our market and the limited revenue we bring to the table. That doesn't even bring up the stupidity of giving Jeff Skinner 35 million with his concussion history and other questionable moves we have made in the past few years.

I went to a Hurricane's game on accident 4 years ago, got hooked on the sport and now will watch almost any hockey game now if its on tv, but you're right, most people don't give a flip beyond what their team does unless its a superstar.

[jamie1981]

Well this thing is gonna drag out til at least the end of the year. With Penn State fielding an NCAA hockey team for the first time, it looks like I will be getting into college hockey.

[DrJones]

Re: Potential Issues with the CBA

Anyway back to our regularly scheduled program, if what you are saying is true then Bettman has to be really, really mentally challenged. I just threw that theory out there, because that is the reality that I have seen with college sports.

The "national footprint" has been a Bettman stand-by since the mid-90s. Did anybody really think it would lead to NBA-level TV riches? Probably not. I think expansion fees were a bigger lure than netowrk contracts.

Plus, I just couldn't come up with any another possible explainations to explain why Bettman insisted on going down this path. I just don't see where Sun Belt teams make a difference honestly in the long run and these teams are just dragging the league down. I love my team, but I know we ain't helping this CBA situation at all with the realities of our market and the limited revenue we bring to the table. That doesn't even bring up the stupidity of giving Jeff Skinner 35 million with his concussion history and other questionable moves we have made in the past few years.

I don't think all of the Sun Belt teams are dragging the league down, but the NHL should get rid of the ones that are (Phoenix, Florida), and put the other ones in a better position to succeed long-term. For starters, the NHL needs to do a better job vetting ownership groups, particularly those in shaky markets. Anybody who has trouble coming up with real cash money (hello, Greg Jamison) should be snubbed. Signing onerous leases with community-owned arenas should be strongly discouraged.

[khlrplfan]

Re: Lockout/CBA Discussion Thread

The fact is hockey just isn't that popular outside of Canada.

Like for instance, CSKA Moscow is averaging less than 3,000 fans a game and Moscow in general does not care too much for hockey. Ovechkin's return to Dynamo Moscow did not come close to selling out - about 70% full which means less than 5,000 fans.

In Russia it's not such a big deal as teams are more toys for billionaires and community service projects, but as far as turning profit no. Now in USA where the aim is to make profit, well you see where this leads. The finances just don't match the level of interest.

[thedudedominick]

Re: Lockout/CBA Discussion Thread

The fact is hockey just isn't that popular outside of Canada.

Like for instance, CSKA Moscow is averaging less than 3,000 fans a game and Moscow in general does not care too much for hockey. Ovechkin's return to Dynamo Moscow did not come close to selling out - about 70% full which means less than 5,000 fans.

In Russia it's not such a big deal as teams are more toys for billionaires and community service projects, but as far as turning profit no. Now in USA where the aim is to make profit, well you see where this leads. The finances just don't match the level of interest.

Wow that's bad, here in Vegas the ECHL Team generally gets 2000-3000 people a game. Hockey though is very popular in parts of the US and is growing in popularity in non-traditional hockey markets like California. I understand why the NHL wants teams outside of traditional markets, to expand the fan base and add interest in youth hockey in the area. I mean we are starting to see more guys drafted from non-traditional hockey places from the US. Unfortunately this doesn't make money in these markets, even if it does create new fans and add interest to hockey in areas that wouldn't normally care.

[SPTO]

Re: Lockout/CBA Discussion Thread

One thing i'll say for the California market, it's the one non-traditional hockey market that has actually WORKED. I feel that Colorado is at a crossroads. That market has been very good but only when the product on the ice is also that good. Anyways, back to California when the Kings came to the league they were owned by a Canadian Jack Kent Cooke (he also later owned the Redskins 2 years later) and there were roots put in place in the LA market. The attendance waxed and waned at times but there was a hockey culture being seeded and from what I hear there are quite a few hockey rinks in the area. It was this building up of a market for over 2 decades that allowed for San Jose and later Anaheim to get teams and build up a culture there as people who lived in the LA area and snowbirds from Canada had settled roots in the state thus providing a grassroots community.

One thing I think Gary Bettman did foolishly was not look at why California was a success. It was a total commitment from Kings ownership and reaching out to the community that made it work. Of course having Gretzky there in the early '90s gave the club a profile that it badly needed and that was the final piece to making the Kings firmly established. It's true that they're treated like the 3rd tenant at Staples these days but for a long time when the Clippers were crap they were the #2 team.

Bettman went wild and put teams in Florida in back to back years without even allowing the first team (Lightining) to cultivate any kind of hockey culture at all. That's the main reason why that market has had up and down success throughout that time though the on ice product has a lot to do with it.

You compare that with Nashville and Carolina, two markets that while they're not particularly strong are at least able to gain a foothold in their markets and establish roots. The Canes have a strong but small fanbase and the crowds in the arena are probably the smartest in the neo non-traditional markets. Nashville is slowly building up a solid core and interestingly the building is usually filled to capacity but almost none of that comes from corporate dollars. It's all the average person paying out to see the Preds. Yes I know both markets have some of the lowest ticket prices but I think that's with the goal of building a fanbase in mind and once these stupid lockouts/strikes stop happening and there's a string of years where there's no work stoppage the prices will normalize to the point that they'll be in the median in terms of ticket prices.

[bad_philanthropy]

Re: Lockout/CBA Discussion Thread

SPTO's points on a legitimate hockey culture in L.A. are interesting, and I agree wholeheartedly. I went to a Kings vs. Sharks game at the Staples Center a few years ago and was blown away by not only how passionate the fans were, but how high the hockey aptitude was. It definitely didn't feel like the spectators were witnessing some novel spectacle. These were people who knew hockey, and knew the Kings. There was even a good number of San Jose fans having friendly back-and-forth with the Kings supporters. It was a great atmosphere—far better than anything I've experienced at Leafs games in the mausoleum-like atmoshphere at the ACC.

[rdnk]

Re: Lockout/CBA Discussion Thread

Jim Devallano's comments (got him fined 250 K):

"I think it should be clear up front that Gary Bettman works for the owners, not the players, and he is now entering his 20th year doing this. The owners direct him on what to do. I was at the meetings last week and I'm here to tell you when there was a call to vote for the lockout, it was 30 to NONE in favour by the owners. So I ask you Scott, why is that Gary Bettman's fault and not the owners?"

"Another reason people come down hard on him is that a lot of folks truly believe he is the driving force behind all the decisions on how owners proceed. Some of this is true, but I can tell you he is directed by 30 separate business owners who all give him advice and he has to take all of this and come back to all of them with what makes the most sense as a group. Not an easy thing to do, but he does it and does it well."

"Listen Scott, there is a hard cap in place as we all know. You can't go over that period. If Weber gets this much, then another player gets less. Now does that mean it's right for another team to do that? My answer is this: They (Philadelphia) operated within the CBA and it's totally legit to do. Having said that, I will tell you there is an unwritten rule that you don't do that, but they did, and just like everything else in life, some people are great to deal with, some aren't. If you are asking me if it's right, I would say there is, again, an unwritten rule...we all know it in the NHL, but not everyone follows it."

"I'll make a suggestion Scott. Let the players take 43% and let the owners take 57%. Just reverse it from where it is now and let the owners run the rest of their business and manage their expenses. Now keep in mind this time around it's not just revenue sharing that is the issue. There are many, many more components at play here, from entry level contracts, years of service, insurance, etc. I mean a whole bucket load of disputes that are just as important for the owners to need to get a fair deal done."

"Yes, they are billionaires. Good on them, they deserve it, but they also make their employees millionaires. Not a bad trade off for a guy like Lucic getting what, 6 million dollars a year? I mean good on him too, but he should be grateful. Understand though that these players want for nothing...its first class this, first class that, meal allowances, travel money on the road, the whole shebang. Offer sheets don't hurt the players one bit."

“It’s very complicated and way too much for the average Joe to understand, but having said that, I will tell you this: The owners can basically be viewed as the Ranch, and the players, and me included, are the cattle,” Devellano said. “The owners own the Ranch and allow the players to eat there. That’s the way its always been and that the way it will be forever. And the owners simply aren’t going to let a union push them around. It’s not going to happen.”

[AC]

Re: Lockout/CBA Discussion Thread

"Once again the NHL is breaking my heart. The NHL is like that bad boyfriend, who keeps breaking up with you, ironically right after you thought things were going really well, and then eventually begs for you back. You know that you care about him more than he cares about you, and there's nothing you can do about it. And he knows that you're so in love, that you'll always keep going back for more. Now is the time that you begin eating a lot of ice cream and drinking wine by the bottle, telling yourself over and over again that you are done and will never take him back. On the outside you appear to show some resolve, but on the inside you are just desperately waiting for him to come back. This is so depressing."
—Ashley R. from Rahway, NJ
(from Grantland's mailbag)

That's an... interesting analogy.

[khlrplfan]

Re: Lockout/CBA Discussion Thread

Wow that's bad, here in Vegas the ECHL Team generally gets 2000-3000 people a game. Hockey though is very popular in parts of the US and is growing in popularity in non-traditional hockey markets like California. I understand why the NHL wants teams outside of traditional markets, to expand the fan base and add interest in youth hockey in the area. I mean we are starting to see more guys drafted from non-traditional hockey places from the US. Unfortunately this doesn't make money in these markets, even if it does create new fans and add interest to hockey in areas that wouldn't normally care.

CSKA's attendance is the worst in the KHL. Dynamo is close to bottom. Like said, Muscovites are just not that interested. Of course there are great places too like St. Petersburg, Ufa, Chelyabinsk, and outside of Russia, Riga and Minsk. However, these teams also don't make money.

Really if NHL just cuts obvious fat then they should be good, but it seems southern markets have a lure on people. I know Sochi will likely have a KHL team at some point and that is just like a Miami in the United States having a hockey team. Everyone sees the nice weather and thinks they can make it work while ignoring obvious warning signs.