FORZA 2 Tuning

[muggins]

Re: FORZA 2 Tuning

I made a post explaining some of this over at DSP, but basically you can't treat your pedals like a digital on/off switch. Tuning will get you so far, but it won't cure the "problem" of some 700hp monster breaking the back wheels free when you drop the hammer. My wife was laughing last night because I had a U999 Porsche 959 that I barely ever could plant the pedal on the floor with. Even if you're exiting a corner, and hit a straight...you can't just drop the hammer. If the torque is absurdly high, which it will be with a highly upgraded car, you won't really be able to plant your foot until you've shifted a couple of times and you're probably in 4th gear or so.

There's no "magic tune up". If you exceed the capability of a tire to do anything...acceleration grip, cornering, braking...it will break traction. If you're using any of the tire for cornering (even exiting a corner) and then try and use 100% of the grip for acceleration, it will break loose. If you are using 100% of the tire's grip for braking and then try to corner, it will break loose. In the case of a long sweeper, the habit is to really put it at peak performance (close to 100% cornering) and then try and apply some throttle as the car slowly loses momentum. If you're near 100% of the tire's maximum grip due to G-forces through the corner and then even breathe on the gas, you have one of those snaps where the tire crosses that 100% plateau and then comes back down...causing a momentary loss of control and then sudden grip again in whatever direction the car is facing.

Again, you won't find any magic tune up options outside of messing with the differential, but almost any car is driveable; you just have to adapt to it, as hard as it is with some cars. That's the downside of upgrading a commuter into a Ferrari killer.

Nice post 10/10 would read again

[TCrouch]

Re: FORZA 2 Tuning

Ok yeah I am down with that.

My issue just comes with the speeds at which the car breaks loose.

35 MPH around a lazy curve and it breaks loose? You should be able to gas it right through the turn using the torque to hold the car down, but even without the torque you should be able to hold the line going 35 mph.

OK, now that you understand the torque concept, take it another step. Imagine each tire has a contact patch that has physics applied in a full 360 degrees. Acceleration and Braking are just forward and backward applications to the tire model.

Now, if you take that 35 mph corner that puts side to side application on the tire at max grip, THEN adjust the wheel even the slightest amount, you now just pushed it past the grip envelope...so even a 10 mph corner could theoretically break loose if you move that application quickly from side to rear. Open up the telemetry when driving around and you'll see the lines extending for each tire. The direction the line goes is which way the inertia is heading, and anytime the line leaves the circle is exceeding the tire's capability. Speed doesn't matter as much as proper balance between all axes.

In your SUV the balance is easy to maintain since the weight distribution is forward-sitting with the engine up front...harder for the weight to suddenly shift off the center point of the car, causing the rear to break loose. If the engine is centered (like a mid-engine car) then it's like keeping it on a ball...very easy to throw the weight in any direction with the slightest movement.

[blacklover]

Re: FORZA 2 Tuning

Ok I see that and I think another issue might be the Clio as it's got a high profile which isn't helping the center rotation issue at all.

I have the 914/6, which has a decidely lower profile and I'll give that a run through on the same course and see how it fares.

I sure do wish you could counter balance the car by adding weight. I could easily counter the negatives of the extra weight by adding more power through all of the available options to do that.

Ha, I also want to try one of the cars the CPU is using as I kill them on the straights but they just can whiz by me in the curves (unless I block) with no fear of the back end sliding out.

[BezO]

Re: FORZA 2 Tuning

If you exceed the capability of a tire to do anything...acceleration grip, cornering, braking...it will break traction. If you're using any of the tire for cornering (even exiting a corner) and then try and use 100% of the grip for acceleration, it will break loose. If you are using 100% of the tire's grip for braking and then try to corner, it will break loose. In the case of a long sweeper, the habit is to really put it at peak performance (close to 100% cornering) and then try and apply some throttle as the car slowly loses momentum. If you're near 100% of the tire's maximum grip due to G-forces through the corner and then even breathe on the gas, you have one of those snaps where the tire crosses that 100% plateau and then comes back down...causing a momentary loss of control and then sudden grip again in whatever direction the car is facing.

If I'm interpreting this correctly, this makes sense. I watch racing probably 3-4 times a year, and this is my first driving game, so pardon the ignorance, but...

You're saying that a tire has but some much traction... if you're using all of it to corner, you have no traction left to break or gas?

Question. How should I approach turns? Is it best to down shift then break(or break and then down shift) and get down to speed before the turn? Should I not break or gas at all while in the turn? What's ideal?

Trying to keep up with the AI cars, I usually end up fishtailing through the corners. And playing it safe usually gets me left in the dust.

[p_rushing]

Re: FORZA 2 Tuning

You should do almost all breaking before the turn. If you were to slam on your breaks in your real car, you would not be able to turn the car at the same time. Same thing goes for the game, you should break before the turn and lay off the gas until you exit the turn. As far as how fast you get back on to the gas, it depends on the turn. You cannot get on the gas while turning or you will lose the backend. What you should do is start slowly on the gas until you are straight and then apply more.

[TCrouch]

Re: FORZA 2 Tuning

The man speaks the truth ^^^

See, there are so many factors that come into play when talking about driving a race car, or a simulated version like these. Forza 2 just gets a LOT of those factors right, making a lot of people sit up and take notice. What you could get away with in almost any console game before (yet not in a lot of hardcore PC sims for years) you can no longer do here. It's an eye-opener of sorts, considering the title's hype and popularity. Not only do you have cardinal rules like "don't turn and brake at the same time" or throttle and turn, etc...but you actually CAN do it in some instances. You also have power-to-weight ratios. In lighter cars you can get away with far more than heavier cars...but a light car with absurd power is harder to drive than a heavy car with low power. There's a zillion combinations of power-to-weight-to-grip-coefficients that make it impossible to have a one-size-fits-all way of driving. But with regards to your specific question...

Cornering: the "optimal" line would be to decelerate/downshift to just a hair over the maximum speed that would put your tires at the cornering threshold. It's not a squeal, but more of a scrub...you can hear it if you listen closely. If you get to that sweet spot, you can then dial it back just a hair and you'll still have room to operate. Because, at that point (providing you have the steering wheel "locked" into that optimal turning position where you don't have to see-saw on it), you can then use the throttle to adjust your line through a corner. Let me say that again: You should NOT be altering a line through a corner by moving the wheel. You should find that "sweet spot" of speed, just where the tires are scrubbing and not squealing, and then use the throttle to adjust your line. If you start creeping inward toward the apex, apply a bit more throttle. If you start drifting outward toward the edge of the track, smoothly release a bit of the gas, which will bring your car back into the cornering balance.

It's easier with a manual transmission, since it only takes a few corners to figure out which gear is for what type of corner. That's where the tuning aspect comes in. The easiest adjustment you can make is to raise and lower the gear ratio slider. I want a car that will take the hairpins in 2nd gear, a 90 degree corner in 3rd, and sweepers and doglegs in 4th+. If you do that, you should run most of a course in 2nd through 4th gear, reserving 5th and 6th for the straights with the most time spent in the power band (the range of RPMs where the engine outputs the most power). Some guys will shorten it more, so they run the majority of a track in 3rd through 5th and 4th becomes a "do all" gear, but I just feel that you'll either burn too much low-RPM power in 6th if you DO need it, and a single gear can't possibly do everything that I want it to do...much too broad a range of power. Either it will be a dog coming out of a corner, or it will lack the burst at the top end to be effective. I'll turn a couple laps, adjust the gears, and go from there. It's a simple fix, but a rule of thumb is to aim for a MPH...you'll see a little sliding scale as you move the slider around. It will show your gears as they cross the MPH lines. If you set your gears properly, the cornering becomes a snap.

What that long-winded explanation was prefacing was this: once you have your gears set, then you will figure out an RPM range that each gear holds. If I'm coming up on a 90 degree right hander, I know I can downshift to 3rd (using marks heading into a corner to leave me enough distance to do so) and hit my RPM target, then I can enter smoothly. It may take a couple of tries to find the marks...you'll see little signs outside of the corners...250, 200, 150, 100, etc. Use those to make mental notes of how long it takes you to slow down. Decelerate and downshift to the appropriate gear for the situation, hit the sweet spot of tire scrubbing and use the throttle to hold the line. As you apex you can begin releasing the steering wheel and applying throttle. It should be one smooth motion, a 1:1 ratio. As you release steering, apply the same amount of throttle and as your steering wheel straightens, you should SMOOTHLY be back to full throttle.

Sounds easy, right? It is once you get used to it...then you throw other cars out there screwing up your marks and your lines and it all goes to hell in a handbasket, but that's the fun.

[mgoblue]

Re: FORZA 2 Tuning

makes me want to fire up the game now and test some of this out!

[blacklover]

Re: FORZA 2 Tuning

yeah crouch, great stuff.

That was exactly what I did when I fired the game up an hour ago, I altered the gear ratios and had much more success. The two corners that were causing the spinouts, the trouble was being exacerbated by the transmission moving down a gear during the turn. Which is why throttle control was making the turns easier because it was keeping the revs a bit higher (some helpful torque) and the gear I entered the turn with "locked in".

I wish I read your post first then it would have been 100% dead on instead of an experiment. Either way, the results showed this to be the remedy.

[BezO]

Re: FORZA 2 Tuning

Crouch/Rushing,

This is what I was looking for. Thanks!

Cornering: the "optimal" line would be to decelerate/downshift to just a hair over the maximum speed that would put your tires at the cornering threshold.

So, ideally I want to cruise through a turn... not breaks or gas, right? I guess I've been entering the turns to slow. I usually get left in turns by the AI cars.

Because, at that point (providing you have the steering wheel "locked" into that optimal turning position where you don't have to see-saw on it), you can then use the throttle to adjust your line through a corner. Let me say that again: You should NOT be altering a line through a corner by moving the wheel. You should find that "sweet spot" of speed, just where the tires are scrubbing and not squealing, and then use the throttle to adjust your line. If you start creeping inward toward the apex, apply a bit more throttle. If you start drifting outward toward the edge of the track, smoothly release a bit of the gas, which will bring your car back into the cornering balance.

At least a part of my problem is that I'm using a controller, not a steering wheel. It's tough to find that line with a controller.

I'm in limbo. I really like this game, but it's likely the only driving game I'll get this year. I can't yet justify buying a wheel.

[TCrouch]

Re: FORZA 2 Tuning

Ideally, yes. You really spend a lot of time on NEITHER pedal when hauling ***, especially on winding tracks. There are entire sections of Suzuka through those back and forth esses that I really just barely touch the throttle, but the car is continually dancing on it.

See, if you brake down to a speed where you can go through the corner without issue completely, then you just lost several MPH of momentum. If you brake a bit over and then coast into it, you keep that momentum for accelerating out of the corner again. That's why most online racers are left scratching their heads why a veteran can just run right up on them each corner like they're completely screwing up, despite having the car on the ragged edge, feeling like it can't go any faster. It's usually because they either went in TOO hot, causing way too much correcting by overbraking, or broke too much, causing a hiccup effect...the car slows down, but a bit too much, and suddenly you're left scrambling for foreward bite the rest of the way.

Meanwhile, a "veteran" simracer (what a corny word, sorry) is hitting just the right entrance speed, coasting down to that scrub speed, and slowly applying throttle out. The former way goes from..just an example....185 down to 160 and then jumps back up to 170 on exit. The latter has you dropping smoothly from 185 to 168, smoothly through a corner, back to 175 on exit before the other car can generate enough forward bite to get going again.

If you don't lose the momentum, there's nothing to worry about.

[laforr77]

Re: FORZA 2 Tuning

Oh yeah one other thing. you can do weight reduction but can you do weight addition?

I'd like to put about 100 pounds right in the back of the rear trunk.

Even though you've pretty much solved your problem... downforce acts like extra weight on the car, so adding a wing could let you add some extra "weight" to the back end if you wanted to do so.

[mgoblue]

Re: FORZA 2 Tuning

Cornering: the "optimal" line would be to decelerate/downshift to just a hair over the maximum speed that would put your tires at the cornering threshold. It's not a squeal, but more of a scrub...you can hear it if you listen closely. If you get to that sweet spot, you can then dial it back just a hair and you'll still have room to operate. Because, at that point (providing you have the steering wheel "locked" into that optimal turning position where you don't have to see-saw on it), you can then use the throttle to adjust your line through a corner. Let me say that again: You should NOT be altering a line through a corner by moving the wheel. You should find that "sweet spot" of speed, just where the tires are scrubbing and not squealing, and then use the throttle to adjust your line. If you start creeping inward toward the apex, apply a bit more throttle. If you start drifting outward toward the edge of the track, smoothly release a bit of the gas, which will bring your car back into the cornering balance.

great stuff here, TC! I just played a while and with the wheel I find I'm starting to learn with practice and I begin to get that innate feeling of how fast I can enter the corner. I know I'm probably slowing too much right now, but before I'd be entering too fast, trying to turn the wheel to compensate, and it'd end up ugly. Now I slow down before the turn, turn the wheel, and feather the throttle to keep my line.

Instead of barreling into a turn and having to somehow hold on, I'm actually keeping a fairly competent racing line. Now it's just a matter of learning the different turns better so I can enter them as fast as possible, notice that kinda squeal/start to slide of the tires but not let it get any further.

[TCrouch]

Re: FORZA 2 Tuning

great stuff here, TC! I just played a while and with the wheel I find I'm starting to learn with practice and I begin to get that innate feeling of how fast I can enter the corner. I know I'm probably slowing too much right now, but before I'd be entering too fast, trying to turn the wheel to compensate, and it'd end up ugly. Now I slow down before the turn, turn the wheel, and feather the throttle to keep my line.

Instead of barreling into a turn and having to somehow hold on, I'm actually keeping a fairly competent racing line. Now it's just a matter of learning the different turns better so I can enter them as fast as possible, notice that kinda squeal/start to slide of the tires but not let it get any further.

Exactly, bro! After a while, tracks are just a combination of corners...you memorize the corner angles and then you can go from turn to turn with less trouble, especially with that little minimap on screen. With a glance you can get ready for all upcoming turns mentally before they're there.

And going in a little too slow is MUCH better than going in a little too fast. You're almost there, man!

[DaveDQ]

Re: FORZA 2 Tuning

Cornering: the "optimal" line would be to decelerate/downshift to just a hair over the maximum speed that would put your tires at the cornering threshold. It's not a squeal, but more of a scrub...you can hear it if you listen closely. If you get to that sweet spot, you can then dial it back just a hair and you'll still have room to operate. Because, at that point (providing you have the steering wheel "locked" into that optimal turning position where you don't have to see-saw on it), you can then use the throttle to adjust your line through a corner. Let me say that again: You should NOT be altering a line through a corner by moving the wheel. You should find that "sweet spot" of speed, just where the tires are scrubbing and not squealing, and then use the throttle to adjust your line. If you start creeping inward toward the apex, apply a bit more throttle. If you start drifting outward toward the edge of the track, smoothly release a bit of the gas, which will bring your car back into the cornering balance.

That's excellent advice. I'm sitting here reading it and I'm fully aware I don't do that. It's like my first reaction is to brake my way through a turn, and if I feel like I'm not at a threat on the turn, I'll increase speed, paying no attention to how close I am to the apex.

I think it's because I, like many others, go into the track with the intention of always having my foot on the gas, and braking when I feel like I might spin out, thinking that's the way to gain maximum speed. It has really become an important discipline.

[BezO]

Re: FORZA 2 Tuning

Ideally, yes. You really spend a lot of time on NEITHER pedal when hauling ***, especially on winding tracks. There are entire sections of Suzuka through those back and forth esses that I really just barely touch the throttle, but the car is continually dancing on it.

See, if you brake down to a speed where you can go through the corner without issue completely, then you just lost several MPH of momentum. If you brake a bit over and then coast into it, you keep that momentum for accelerating out of the corner again. That's why most online racers are left scratching their heads why a veteran can just run right up on them each corner like they're completely screwing up, despite having the car on the ragged edge, feeling like it can't go any faster. It's usually because they either went in TOO hot, causing way too much correcting by overbraking, or broke too much, causing a hiccup effect...the car slows down, but a bit too much, and suddenly you're left scrambling for foreward bite the rest of the way.

Meanwhile, a "veteran" simracer (what a corny word, sorry) is hitting just the right entrance speed, coasting down to that scrub speed, and slowly applying throttle out. The former way goes from..just an example....185 down to 160 and then jumps back up to 170 on exit. The latter has you dropping smoothly from 185 to 168, smoothly through a corner, back to 175 on exit before the other car can generate enough forward bite to get going again.

If you don't lose the momentum, there's nothing to worry about.

I have a lot of practicing to do. I won't be online for a looooooong while.

Thanks again!