Christopher Nolan + DiCaprio = Inception

[OSUFan_88]

Re: Christopher Nolan + DiCaprio = Inception

Spoiler

Heard an interesting theory today:

Cobb's totem wasn't actually the top but was his kids faces.

[Fresh Tendrils]

Re: Christopher Nolan + DiCaprio = Inception

Spoiler

Heard an interesting theory today:

Cobb's totem wasn't actually the top but was his kids faces.

Well..

Spoiler

Technically speaking it wasn't his "true" totem. He said it was Mal's and he never revealed what his totem was, but that theory actually makes sense. Plus, one of his rules was to never tell anybody how your totem works, which he actually told what the top did in dream/reality.

[Bornindamecca]

Re: Christopher Nolan + DiCaprio = Inception

I saw the movie and liked it a lot. Didn't see how the story was confusing. Kinda surprised by some of the people telling me that it may not make sense.

Well..

Spoiler

Technically speaking it wasn't his "true" totem. He said it was Mal's and he never revealed what his totem was, but that theory actually makes sense. Plus, one of his rules was to never tell anybody how your totem works, which he actually told what the top did in dream/reality.

Spoiler

There are only two potential items that could be his totem. His gun or the top. The totem is supposed to be a real object that you carry around and only you know the weight of it. When they captured him, they specifically said he only had those two things with him. For my money, the gun is too big to be his totem, but it wouldn't be the first rule that his character had broken.

[CMH]

Re: Christopher Nolan + DiCaprio = Inception

Spoiler

Cool, I think I get it now. It's just interesting they made such a big fuss out of being stuck in limbo, and if one of them got stuck in limbo in this sedated state that they were in, they would wake up with your brain in mush since they were down there for so long. But really, the whole time all they had to do was kill themselves... just the same as any other level. Maybe it's the combination of realizing you're in limbo and death that makes it happen?

I'm just trying to find out the importance of getting dropped down to limbo, because it didn't seem like that big of a deal. Ellen Page's character simply jumped off a building and was back to reality. Leo (possibly) killed himself as well as Saito, and they were both fine.

Maybe I'm making a big deal over nothing and am being stupid, but that was really the only part of the movie that went over my head.

Spoiler

Keep in mind that if you die in Limbo without realizing you were in Limbo, you will be mush in reality. That's what they meant about the dangers of Limbo. It's the only layer of dreams that can kill you in the real world because you will actually believe that you have died.

So when he convinces Saito it is Limbo and Saito pulls the trigger, Saito is able to wake up because he now knows that he has not been living in the real world.

[thaima1shu]

Re: Christopher Nolan + DiCaprio = Inception

Spoiler

Keep in mind that if you die in Limbo without realizing you were in Limbo, you will be mush in reality. That's what they meant about the dangers of Limbo. It's the only layer of dreams that can kill you in the real world because you will actually believe that you have died.

So when he convinces Saito it is Limbo and Saito pulls the trigger, Saito is able to wake up because he now knows that he has not been living in the real world.

Spoiler

Precisely. You have to realize you are in limbo before you can get out, like I was saying earlier. Otherwise your brain indeed turns to mush if you try to kill yourself. Like I said, that's why Cobb had to plant the idea into his wife's mind that they weren't in the real world before they could kill themselves, and same with Saito.

[Bornindamecca]

Re: Christopher Nolan + DiCaprio = Inception

Spoiler

Keep in mind that if you die in Limbo without realizing you were in Limbo, you will be mush in reality. That's what they meant about the dangers of Limbo. It's the only layer of dreams that can kill you in the real world because you will actually believe that you have died.

So when he convinces Saito it is Limbo and Saito pulls the trigger, Saito is able to wake up because he now knows that he has not been living in the real world.

Spoiler

Precisely. You have to realize you are in limbo before you can get out, like I was saying earlier. Otherwise your brain indeed turns to mush if you try to kill yourself. Like I said, that's why Cobb had to plant the idea into his wife's mind that they weren't in the real world before they could kill themselves, and same with Saito.

Spoiler

It's also that in limbo, time is stretched out very, very long because of the exponential shift in perception. So if you're down for ten minutes, waiting for the kick in the first layer, you're down for decades in limbo. So while you're waiting for the kick, after so much time down there, your perception shifts and you lose perspective on what is dream and what is reality. When Cobb and Mal went down there, they went voluntarily, not realizing how crazy limbo would be. When Saito went down there, he was under the heavy sedative so he could not wake up before the kick no matter what. Cobb and Mal could have potentially woken themselves up at any time.

[elgreazy1]

Re: Christopher Nolan + DiCaprio = Inception

Saw it the other day and was not a fan. I wanted to like it, but it just didn't do anything for me.

[CMH]

Re: Christopher Nolan + DiCaprio = Inception

Saw it the other day and was not a fan. I wanted to like it, but it just didn't do anything for me.

It's not 100% on Rotten Tomatoes and I would never expect everyone to like a film. These things happen. You didn't like it, that's all right.

Do you think you know why you didn't enjoy it?

[Brankles]

Re: Christopher Nolan + DiCaprio = Inception

Not to sound condescending, and I'm not talking about anyone here directly, but I think a lot of people didn't like it because it wasn't your typical dumbed-down mindless entertainment. Some people just like to watch Ryan Reynolds up to his old antics in a dime-a-dozen RomCom, or Jason Statham run around and blow things up for no reason.

That's fine, people watch movies for different reasons. This wasn't supposed to be a film for everybody, the way a Toy Story 3 or The Dark Knight were. It was a very cerebral and thought-provoking film and required more involvement than your average blockbuster. It was not linear and it did not have a clear moral or message. Very few things were explained, moreso they were acted out. Inception was more of an experience than a story.

I think Nolan did his best to make this movie not too over-the-top mindbending and have it so more people could appreciate it, but there will always be those who don't think the way the movie wants you to think, and miss the more comfortable, easy-to-understand flicks like Transformers or Avatar.

Spoiler

As an aside, there was also very little resolution at the end of the movie, which makes people uncomfortable and not appreciate the movie as much.

[elgreazy1]

Re: Christopher Nolan + DiCaprio = Inception

It's not 100% on Rotten Tomatoes and I would never expect everyone to like a film. These things happen. You didn't like it, that's all right.

Do you think you know why you didn't enjoy it?

Fair enough question:

I think a lot of the parts with the movie being very over-hyped to begin with and possibly my expectations that it would be on par with a Dark Knight 'esque type movie. I enjoyed the special effects and I think the acting and direction was all done rather well, it just missed the mark with me. As a forward, I'm not an avid movie goer and I'm also not John Q Public who needs everything dumbed down for me because I enjoy having to figure things out on my own, so my opinions aren't based on "I didn't understand," "the movie's ideas were too complex for me", "the plot didn't have enough booms," etc. which is where I expect most people to begin to dissect my statements.

The characters all seemed to have zero to no background or development except for Cobb - who himself wasn't even a protagonist one would cheer for. His situation was completely created by himself - that of him and his wife - but on top of that, he put his own motives ahead of any member of his team solely for himself. Ariadne (Ellen Page) went from being a wide-eyed, young architecture student to all of a sudden jumping to a level of full omnipotent understanding who knew no fear and dissected right from wrong in such a black & white manner - she never feared any situation she was in throughout the entire movie, she was made far wiser than her years, in fact, she was just all "balls", etc. There was no growth there, simply jumping from Point A to Point Z with her. What of the other characters? They were simply there with no tie to them whatsoever. I understand there wasn't time to flesh out every character, but in the end, they all seemed as hollow as that of the Matrix characters.

As for the plot, well I guess reading, other movies, and gaming really have spoiled me in a sense. The likes of Bioshock, Alan Wake, Silent Hill, Metal Gear Solid, Grand Theft Auto, Star Wars: KOTOR, Mass Effect, etc have made the art of telling a story that much harder to live up to. In Inception's case, everything was based too far in the abstract where there was no real sense of anything relative - and this is coming from a person who's job is to think in the abstract (graphic design) - so there was never a tie to anyone or anything. There was never any fear for any character's life being lost nor that any real harm would become of them except to be trapped in limbo. There were never any points where I clinched my hands, squirmed or got nervous for what was going to happen to anyone or anything because somehow I knew it would all work out.

The aspect I most enjoyed of the movie was the fight scene with Arthur (Joseph Gordon-Levitt) and the henchmen as the buildings and physics were being distorted. Again, as I stated, directed rather well, good acting for what the actors had to work with, good art direction, and a good idea for a plot. It just appears somewhere it didn't click with me. Yes, I understood the plot: dreams within dreams within dreams and why things were done for whatever reason, but it just all seemed like a lot of fluff. The Departed is a perfect example of a movie with lots of plot twists but one's that were absolutely necessary to make things work, but plot twists do not always equate to great movies and I think this movie began to buy into itself too much at a certain point.

On top of that, I strongly feel the ending was a cop out; instead of giving a definitive answer to anything - much like every aspect of the movie - the writer/director/execs felt the need to play yet another mind game with the viewer all of which by the end felt completely unnecessary.

[Bornindamecca]

Re: Christopher Nolan + DiCaprio = Inception

Fair enough question:

I think a lot of the parts with the movie being very over-hyped to begin with and possibly my expectations that it would be on par with a Dark Knight 'esque type movie. I enjoyed the special effects and I think the acting and direction was all done rather well, it just missed the mark with me. As a forward, I'm not an avid movie goer and I'm also not John Q Public who needs everything dumbed down for me because I enjoy having to figure things out on my own, so my opinions aren't based on "I didn't understand," "the movie's ideas were too complex for me", "the plot didn't have enough booms," etc. which is where I expect most people to begin to dissect my statements.

The characters all seemed to have zero to no background or development except for Cobb - who himself wasn't even a protagonist one would cheer for. His situation was completely created by himself - that of him and his wife - but on top of that, he put his own motives ahead of any member of his team solely for himself. Ariadne (Ellen Page) went from being a wide-eyed, young architecture student to all of a sudden jumping to a level of full omnipotent understanding who knew no fear and dissected right from wrong in such a black & white manner - she never feared any situation she was in throughout the entire movie, she was made far wiser than her years, in fact, she was just all "balls", etc. There was no growth there, simply jumping from Point A to Point Z with her. What of the other characters? They were simply there with no tie to them whatsoever. I understand there wasn't time to flesh out every character, but in the end, they all seemed as hollow as that of the Matrix characters.

As for the plot, well I guess reading, other movies, and gaming really have spoiled me in a sense. The likes of Bioshock, Alan Wake, Silent Hill, Metal Gear Solid, Grand Theft Auto, Star Wars: KOTOR, Mass Effect, etc have made the art of telling a story that much harder to live up to. In Inception's case, everything was based too far in the abstract where there was no real sense of anything relative - and this is coming from a person who's job is to think in the abstract (graphic design) - so there was never a tie to anyone or anything. There was never any fear for any character's life being lost nor that any real harm would become of them except to be trapped in limbo. There were never any points where I clinched my hands, squirmed or got nervous for what was going to happen to anyone or anything because somehow I knew it would all work out.

The aspect I most enjoyed of the movie was the fight scene with Arthur (Joseph Gordon-Levitt) and the henchmen as the buildings and physics were being distorted. Again, as I stated, directed rather well, good acting for what the actors had to work with, good art direction, and a good idea for a plot. It just appears somewhere it didn't click with me. Yes, I understood the plot: dreams within dreams within dreams and why things were done for whatever reason, but it just all seemed like a lot of fluff. The Departed is a perfect example of a movie with lots of plot twists but one's that were absolutely necessary to make things work, but plot twists do not always equate to great movies and I think this movie began to buy into itself too much at a certain point.

On top of that, I strongly feel the ending was a cop out; instead of giving a definitive answer to anything - much like every aspect of the movie - the writer/director/execs felt the need to play yet another mind game with the viewer all of which by the end felt completely unnecessary.

Great, great post. Very well thought out and articulately explained. I agree on most points, actually. These issues weren't enough to deter my enjoyment of the film, but I would have liked it that much more if it had compelling characters. Leo wasn't very sympathetic or charismatic, and I found myself disengaged in his personal quest until late in the movie. This had nothing to do with with moral ambiguity, but everything to do with the acting, the tone, the dialogue, his relationship with his teammates and how Nolan distributed information throughout the film. In short, Leo seems like a selfish, self centered, messed up guy, and his wife seemed like an equally messed up beeyotch. Emotionally, I didn't invest until the third act.

Spoiler

I also felt that the ending was a bit of a cop out. It was tacked on, cheap and kind of an "Amazing Stories" or "Twilight Zone" button on the whole thing to add the sense of an extra layer of depth that wasn't there. Despite what some people say, this was a very linear action/sci-fi/drama. From a macroperspective, it plays out like a bank robbery movie straight up. They mess up a job, he needs "one last job" to redeem himself and get out of the game and from 2nd act to 3rd act that's basically what happens. I don't have a problem with this, since it's impressive to accomplish that in a film so pregnant with concepts, but the BS with the totem at the end tries to make it more than that. You take that scene out and there is no reason to believe that the film isn't just a gussied up heist movie.

[Brankles]

Re: Christopher Nolan + DiCaprio = Inception

I think the characters were purposefully lacking depth, to add more ambiguity of whether or not they were projections.

The only thing I really agree with is that Cobb's character was kind of annoying and all of his problems seemed to be brought on by his own selfish actions, which was bothersome and caused me not to really care about what happened to him.

[Bornindamecca]

Re: Christopher Nolan + DiCaprio = Inception

I think the characters were purposefully lacking depth, to add more ambiguity of whether or not they were projections.

But that doesn't make sense. Why would the projections lack depth? Whenever someone projected a primary character, they were an accurate representation of the subconscious interpretation of that person's archetypal role in the dreamer's life. So anonymous background people in real life=anonymous projections. Important people to whom the dreamer relates to=layered, complex projections. E.G. Cobb's wife and CEO's right hand man were both very similar to how they were portrayed in real life, with adjustments made towards the skewed subconscious perspective(wife=id).

Also, the characters were very idiosyncratic, which goes against your theory.
The lack of depth was in the character interaction and the cause and effect of their decision making, not just the occasional woodenness of the tone. Oddly, the primary characters carried this tone more than the secondary characters(the professor, Levitt) who had much more life in their characterization.

[HotSauce2k3]

Re: Christopher Nolan + DiCaprio = Inception

I didn't find myself rooting for Cobb either and agree with the other things said about him. I was mostly just rooting for the team to finish the job.

[Brankles]

Re: Christopher Nolan + DiCaprio = Inception

That wasn't his wife though. That was Dom's projection of her, the manifestation of his guilt, which is probably why she seemed equally as messed up. JGL's character alluded to her being pleasant in real life.

EDIT: And I guess we're done with spoiler tags...

lol

Spoiler

That's what I thought as well. She was really erratic and didn't seem human, but a robot that demanded Cobb remain with her. All of the other characters were robotic as well. JGL was a straightforward sidekick. The Chemist and The Forger just did their jobs, nothing else. The Forger playing Tom Berenger's character was just a mimic, so I saw no depth in that character either.

No character developed except for Cobb. They each had their job and they did it. No one deviated from the course except for Cobb, either.

I like Born's comparison to a heist flick. It's pretty similar to that where it was a team of characters that never really developed. Maybe the ending was a cop-out to help explain that, maybe not. I thought it added to the dream feel movie somewhat that the team of characters were fairly mechanical. Reminded me a lot of dream's I've had before, where the characters were focused on one thing and don't change their personality or behavior at all.