Star Wars Episode VIII - The Last Jedi

[Cardot]

Re: Star Wars Episode VIII - The Last Jedi

Man I get so tired of hearing people say this it is not a remake or remixed NH at all. Around the 7:30 mark starts to talk about this and brings up a lot of good points. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YbaliPyihCY

The video made some good points, but I am not 100% sold. He talks about a Star Wars formula, but the similarities between IV and VII go a bit deeper than that. In both cases (off the top of my head):
- We start off with bad guys in pursuit of an outgunned rebellion.
- The bad guys are led by a powerful dude with a black mask & cape.
- The rebels have information the bad guys want.
- Once cornered, in desperation, the information is put into a droid.
- The droid escapes into a desert.
- Droid stumbles upon a young adult who unknowingly is strong with the force.
- Our protagonist is reluctant to leave their desert home, but has to with Storm Troopers in pursuit.
- Our protagonist then meets smuggler/swindler Han Solo, Chewy and the Falcon.
- We have a scene in a shady bar with a bunch of crazy aliens, most of whom seem to be involved with criminal activity.
- Finally we meet up with the rest of the rebellion.

And tbh, I am fine will all of this, but for me the levee really breaks with Star Killer Base. We had 2 Death Stars in the prior three movies....did we really need yet another? Even watching the first time I rolled by eyes. I really wish they had come up with a different final battle scene. It would have avoided much of the "rehash" talk.

[matthewk]

Re: Star Wars Episode VIII - The Last Jedi

You know what I never hear? That Toy Story 3 is just a re-draped Toy Story 2.

Doesn't make me love it any less.

Not the same comparison. Those movies involve the same main cast playing out the same roles.

In TFA:
Rey = Luke
BB8 = R2
Kylo = Vader
Solo = Ben
Starkiller (or whatever they called it) = Death Star
message hidden in BB8 = message hidden in R2
BB8 escapes to a desert planet where the hero finds it = Same but R2 and Luke
etc...

I'm fine with similarities, but TFA was too much.

[WaitTilNextYear]

Re: Star Wars Episode VIII - The Last Jedi

I acknowledge that TFA was a reboot of A New Hope. Still didn't ruin it for me. I went to the theaters expecting Star Wars and a decent movie, and that's what I got. I was satisfied in my experience and was even actively thinking how similar the themes were in the theater. Not sure if a movie has to be XX% different than a previous one for it to be entertaining. After the prequel trilogy, maybe rebooting the original trilogy with new characters wasn't a half-bad idea.

[Blzer]

Re: Star Wars Episode VIII - The Last Jedi

Not the same comparison. Those movies involve the same main cast playing out the same roles.

In TFA:
Rey = Luke
BB8 = R2
Kylo = Vader
Solo = Ben
Starkiller (or whatever they called it) = Death Star
message hidden in BB8 = message hidden in R2
BB8 escapes to a desert planet where the hero finds it = Same but R2 and Luke
etc...

I'm fine with similarities, but TFA was too much.

That is how soft reboots work. They cater to a modern audience but show them what the greatness was of the old stuff. That's exactly how Scream 4 was (since that franchise plays the meta card they actually tell you the stuff alongside it) and that's what Jurassic World and Jigsaw attempted to do on a much lesser scale.

By the way, I found somebody who shares the TS3 = TS2 sentiment, some involving different characters acting out similar parts/themes: https://youtu.be/1pIh0k7dSEM?t=6m47s

Again, I love The Force Awakens. I do even more than A New Hope. I even felt that Return of the Jedi felt similar to ANH in some cases. None of that matters if the movie is good, at least to me. Would I have wanted this whole trilogy to be a carbon copy of the first trilogy? Of course not. TFA was meant to attract to more people and get their feet wet in what this film franchise is all about.

Obviously they had to make up for what the prequels did, and they said: "Let's establish where the universe is now with something that we know works, and we'll spin off of that." Now we're at The Last Jedi, and strangely people who don't like it are giving them props for: "At least it was original."

[DieHardYankee26]

Re: Star Wars Episode VIII - The Last Jedi

Makes perfect sense to me why someone would praise it for that reason. If someone already disliked the original trilogy, they could easily watch TFA and say "well that's the same thing, I still don't like it". Watch TLJ, "I may not like it, but at least it's something different." I'm a big Bond guy, and some of my friends don't like Daniel Craig (they're insane), but they can at least say "Well this isn't just Goldeneye (I changed this from Goldfinger, Goldfinger again would actually be awesome) again".

All of that stuff you said about soft rebooting may be true, but they didn't need to do that. This is a sequel to Episode VI, just keep going. Star Wars isn't some dead and buried property, it's not Saw or Scream. They chose to play it safe, and some people just don't like it.

[Blzer]

Re: Star Wars Episode VIII - The Last Jedi

Makes perfect sense to me why someone would praise it for that reason. If someone already disliked the original trilogy, they could easily watch TFA and say "well that's the same thing, I still don't like it". Watch TLJ, "I may not like it, but at least it's something different."

I was actually referring to fans of the franchise.

All of that stuff you said about soft rebooting may be true, but they didn't need to do that. This is a sequel to Episode VI, just keep going. Star Wars isn't some dead and buried property, it's not Saw or Scream. They chose to play it safe, and some people just don't like it.

Again, many franchise fans thing this series has been dead since 1983. Three decades is much longer than one or two. Before Disney bought Lucasfilm, I didn't think we were going to get a feature-length film for this franchise ever again personally. The Force Awakens was for millennials, and maybe reigniting the flame for franchise fans that thought it was all but dead.

We already have been complaining about TFA being ANH rebranded; that horse is beaten, dead, and put out to pasture. This topic was brought up again because somebody claimed they're tired of hearing about it, and I am as well. Not saying it's not true, just saying it's a tiresome point. That was stated because somebody said that Abrams has only proved himself to make a carbon copy SW film and it says nothing about his originality.

Uhm, has anyone seen what he did with Star Trek? Mission: Impossible? His original works such as Person of Interest, Lost, and Alias? Is anybody still bickering that Super 8 is a combination of E.T. and The Goonies? I have faith in what he will be able to try and do.

I still admire Rian Johnson for taking on some ambitious aspects of this franchise to create the polarization that he has, but I do partly because more things worked than didn't. I'm not a big fan of Steven Sodebergh turning a 180 with Ocean's Twelve because it's just not that good of an Ocean's flick (it's actually a pretty good arthouse film though), and I don't rip a new one for The Hangover: Part II because it is an exact copy of the first film but rather because it's just not as good or funny. The Hangover: Part III tried to be different and it was even worse. No kudos to Todd Phillips for that, none whatsoever.

All I ever hear is comic book movie fans asking for them to follow the comics more closely, if not directly. That sounds a bit hypocritical given the stance among the masses regarding TFA. Heck, Man of Steel was a long-parted deviation from Dick Donner's Superman, and people piss all over it. Maybe Snyder deserves that hate, I don't know; I found out that action scenes and original film aside, MoS is actually a pretty strong film. Yet, people are wincing over the fact that it's not the same character as the first film portrayed him.

Either admire the hubris in changing things for the sake of changing it, or don't... or negate it completely like I tend to. I will acknowledge when something is the same or derived from other material, but it generally isn't a factor in my overall judgment of the piece. It's like Breaking Benjamin's newest album: they have not evolved a single bit over the course of a fifteen year stretch, but I'm still enjoying their material. I did before, so there is no reason not to now even with the new stuff.

Again, I still think that TFA is nothing more than a soft reboot. It was a way of Abrams and Disney saying: "For the old fans, here is what a visual/tonal upgrade sounds like of your beloved Episode IV, here are the new characters that we are going to start following in their own way, and this is where we start to make things right from the prequels" (by the way, I think Kylo is nothing like Darth Vader in any way except for the fact that he wants to be like him, and I think that is a perfectly excusable character arc). They're also saying: "For the newcomers who never gave us a chance, we're going to make this a little more accessible like the new Star Trek, give you a female lead, and it's actually a taste of what got people excited for this franchise to begin with in case you ever want to go back." They concluded with: "Oh, and we're going to kill Han, just FYI."

I saw nothing wrong with any of that, because the film was good.

[DieHardYankee26]

Re: Star Wars Episode VIII - The Last Jedi

That's too much said. The example was just to show how someone might feel. It's still not strange to me that someone who's already seen a movie would praise another movie for doing something new, which is why I use the Bond example.

Many franchise fans don't matter. Star Wars hasn't been dead since 1983. If it was 1996 maybe that would make sense, but not anymore. And honestly, even then, when I was a kid, and every toy I played with was Star Wars, but that's beside the point. George Lucas's bank account can attest to that. None of JJ's original work changes the fact that TFA wasn't particularly original. A lot of people do rip Hangover II for being exactly like the original, and they have since it came out. There is no point in arguing over what people on the internet say at different times, there are a lot of them. A comic book fan can both want those movies to be faithful to the source material and want Star Wars, which doesn't have the same material to draw on (OR DOES, AND ALL OF IT WAS THROWN AWAY WITH THE EXPANDED UNIVERSE), to be different. I don't see them as mutually exclusive, or to have anything to do with each other.

Kylo, to me, is very much like Anakin if the acting wasn't terrible, unhinged and immature for his power level. The copy of a good movie if done right should be good. Whether or not the movie is good is not the issue for most people, it's whether or not the movie being a copy is good.

[Blzer]

Re: Star Wars Episode VIII - The Last Jedi

Okay, with that I will respect most of what you have to say on the matter.

The one thing I'll point out is J.J.'s work on TFA is not what I was referring to, but rather his upcoming work on Episode IX. TFA was, once again, a purpose statement in my opinion. He would have no reason to do that again for Episode IX.

Speaking of which, the amount of people who want Rey to be attached to some other known lineage sounds a bit too much like they do want this to tie in to the other films more than they think. I happened to be one that was happy to hear that she was not (sorry, ending the spoiler tags now once and for all). Maybe it was because it was different, but for me it was more so because: 1) I didn't want it to feel too conveniently contrived that the one person we're following actually happens to have some connections with other familiar characters in the entire universe; 2) it goes to show that anyone can possibly be connected to the Force (not that everybody can, but that it can come from anywhere), just like Broom Kid at the end.

[DieHardYankee26]

Re: Star Wars Episode VIII - The Last Jedi

Most of the people I see that are upset about Rey's origin are not the ones who are upset that TFA was a redo. Those (who don't like it) tend to be the people who didn't like TLJ. It doesn't bother me. To me, this isn't her trilogy, it's Kylo's , and he's a Skywalker, so it fits anyway.

I get it from a storytelling perspective, if they don't follow up on the clues left in TFA, it will look bad. But JJ is a starter and not a finisher in my mind so I didn't expect those to be followed up on anyway.

[Armor and Sword]

Re: Star Wars Episode VIII - The Last Jedi

I was actually referring to fans of the franchise.



Again, many franchise fans thing this series has been dead since 1983. Three decades is much longer than one or two. Before Disney bought Lucasfilm, I didn't think we were going to get a feature-length film for this franchise ever again personally. The Force Awakens was for millennials, and maybe reigniting the flame for franchise fans that thought it was all but dead.

We already have been complaining about TFA being ANH rebranded; that horse is beaten, dead, and put out to pasture. This topic was brought up again because somebody claimed they're tired of hearing about it, and I am as well. Not saying it's not true, just saying it's a tiresome point. That was stated because somebody said that Abrams has only proved himself to make a carbon copy SW film and it says nothing about his originality.

Uhm, has anyone seen what he did with Star Trek? Mission: Impossible? His original works such as Person of Interest, Lost, and Alias? Is anybody still bickering that Super 8 is a combination of E.T. and The Goonies? I have faith in what he will be able to try and do.

I still admire Rian Johnson for taking on some ambitious aspects of this franchise to create the polarization that he has, but I do partly because more things worked than didn't. I'm not a big fan of Steven Sodebergh turning a 180 with Ocean's Twelve because it's just not that good of an Ocean's flick (it's actually a pretty good arthouse film though), and I don't rip a new one for The Hangover: Part II because it is an exact copy of the first film but rather because it's just not as good or funny. The Hangover: Part III tried to be different and it was even worse. No kudos to Todd Phillips for that, none whatsoever.

All I ever hear is comic book movie fans asking for them to follow the comics more closely, if not directly. That sounds a bit hypocritical given the stance among the masses regarding TFA. Heck, Man of Steel was a long-parted deviation from Dick Donner's Superman, and people piss all over it. Maybe Snyder deserves that hate, I don't know; I found out that action scenes and original film aside, MoS is actually a pretty strong film. Yet, people are wincing over the fact that it's not the same character as the first film portrayed him.

Either admire the hubris in changing things for the sake of changing it, or don't... or negate it completely like I tend to. I will acknowledge when something is the same or derived from other material, but it generally isn't a factor in my overall judgment of the piece. It's like Breaking Benjamin's newest album: they have not evolved a single bit over the course of a fifteen year stretch, but I'm still enjoying their material. I did before, so there is no reason not to now even with the new stuff.

Again, I still think that TFA is nothing more than a soft reboot. It was a way of Abrams and Disney saying: "For the old fans, here is what a visual/tonal upgrade sounds like of your beloved Episode IV, here are the new characters that we are going to start following in their own way, and this is where we start to make things right from the prequels" (by the way, I think Kylo is nothing like Darth Vader in any way except for the fact that he wants to be like him, and I think that is a perfectly excusable character arc). They're also saying: "For the newcomers who never gave us a chance, we're going to make this a little more accessible like the new Star Trek, give you a female lead, and it's actually a taste of what got people excited for this franchise to begin with in case you ever want to go back." They concluded with: "Oh, and we're going to kill Han, just FYI."

I saw nothing wrong with any of that, because the film was good.

Star Wars is nothing but accessible.

Star Trek.....now that is a different conversation. I love the new trilogy and Abrams did a brilliant job rebooting that nerd fest of a series. Even my wife who loathes old school trek (which I love) loved the new movies.

But Star Wars? Pure camp. Always has been....always will be. The original trilogy is still highly accessible and simply the best three films in the entire series.....still.

I loved TFA.

Loved R1

Like TLJ

So far so good. No stinkers since Disney took over (bought it).

[Smallville102001]

Re: Star Wars Episode VIII - The Last Jedi

The video made some good points, but I am not 100% sold. He talks about a Star Wars formula, but the similarities between IV and VII go a bit deeper than that. In both cases (off the top of my head):
- We start off with bad guys in pursuit of an outgunned rebellion.
- The bad guys are led by a powerful dude with a black mask & cape.
- The rebels have information the bad guys want.
- Once cornered, in desperation, the information is put into a droid.
- The droid escapes into a desert.
- Droid stumbles upon a young adult who unknowingly is strong with the force.
- Our protagonist is reluctant to leave their desert home, but has to with Storm Troopers in pursuit.
- Our protagonist then meets smuggler/swindler Han Solo, Chewy and the Falcon.
- We have a scene in a shady bar with a bunch of crazy aliens, most of whom seem to be involved with criminal activity.
- Finally we meet up with the rest of the rebellion.

And tbh, I am fine will all of this, but for me the levee really breaks with Star Killer Base. We had 2 Death Stars in the prior three movies....did we really need yet another? Even watching the first time I rolled by eyes. I really wish they had come up with a different final battle scene. It would have avoided much of the "rehash" talk.

I can understand the death star thing but I still don't think of the movie has a remake at all. While it has some similarities like he says all of the star wars movies do has ever franchise has some kind of like formula but I never felt like I have already watched this movie before while I was watching it. Rey is a lot different then Luke was, we never had the whole stormtrooper thing with them leaving. Never had some one trying to find some one like they where doing with luke. I think because all franchise have a formula you can always like try to come up with reasons why a movie is just like a rehash of another movie. Most reports are that TLJ is different yet I found a article earlier today about how TLJ is a rehash of ESB. Also Kylo is much different then Vader.

[JazzMan]

Re: Star Wars Episode VIII - The Last Jedi

Spoiler

Screenshot_20180104-031708.jpg

Sent from my SM-G935V using Tapatalk

[Blzer]

Re: Star Wars Episode VIII - The Last Jedi

^ Now that's a reason to spoiler-tag.

Spoiler

#1, for the entertainment value alone.

Spoiler

<iframe width="560" height="315" src="https://www.youtube.com/embed/MMuHBdz4buk" frameborder="0" gesture="media" allow="encrypted-media" allowfullscreen></iframe>

Spoiler

https://forums.operationsports.com/forums/os-neighborhood/374621-i-hate-ryan-reynolds.html#post2040424497

Spoiler

As a side note, Adam Driver is excellent in Logan Lucky. Such a different character from Kylo Ren, and you can see where he really gets to have fun with it playing a one-armed idiot.

[Blzer]

Re: Star Wars Episode VIII - The Last Jedi

Star Wars is nothing but accessible.

Star Trek.....now that is a different conversation. I love the new trilogy and Abrams did a brilliant job rebooting that nerd fest of a series. Even my wife who loathes old school trek (which I love) loved the new movies.

But Star Wars? Pure camp. Always has been....always will be. The original trilogy is still highly accessible and simply the best three films in the entire series.....still.

I'll give you that Star Wars is much more accessible than Star Trek was (prior to 2009), but you'd be hard-pressed to say that it doesn't cater to a certain crowd still. Not calling people who like these films "nerds," but I will say that a lot of nerds really do like their SW/ST series.

I think in terms of the original trilogy, from ANH-ESB-ROTJ it gets a little less accessible as you continue going down the road. The prequels are also ultimately not very accessible, at least in my opinion. I look at a scene like this and understand why my sisters would be dismissive to try and watch these films (besides the fact AOTC just isn't good).

Case in point, my older sister saw most of ANH, thought it was dumb, and won't give any other SW films a chance. I want her to try TFA and see what she thinks. As much of a carbon copy as it is to ANH, I personally think she'll like it. It is modern, it is "hip," it has a female lead, and Disney does little Disneyesque things to IMO make it more accessible.

But it will forever be more accessible than Star Trek ever was, I'll never disagree to that.

[Cardot]

Re: Star Wars Episode VIII - The Last Jedi

I look at a scene like this and understand why my sisters would be dismissive to try and watch these films (besides the fact AOTC just isn't good).

Say what you will about AOTC, but I always enjoy:
"The Techno Union Army erzzzeruerbzurb is at your disposal Count".