"The devil is here boy, the devil himself"

[Cebby]

Re: "The devil is here boy, the devil himself"

Show the evidence you have for this.

Crime and Education are clearly related, but not in this case. Less educated folk commit more crime, but it is mostly property and drug crime for obvious reasons.

In terms of random acts of murder and rape, I would strongly doubt that education plays much of a part.

Someone(maybe Cebby) made a statement that I thought was knee jerk, and off of the meter of reason, so I asked him to qualify it.

My statement was that there would always be murders, and the only realistic way (not reprogramming human nature) to come close to eliminating murders would be for the government to be so invasive and heavy handed that you'd essentially have no chance of escaping severe punishment. Basically, my idea would be an reactive version of Minority Report.

If you have any other ways of getting rid of murder, I'd like to see it.

[Jackdog]

Re: "The devil is here boy, the devil himself"

If anything, I'm disappointed that people are more interested in defending their instincts for revenge, rather than channeling that energy towards a progressive behavior.

I'd love it if someone thought more about the victims than the malefactor.

With all of your infinite wisdom,one would think you would understand that the anger in this thread is because of the pain and suffering we feel for the victims. Now I am going to channel my energy into ignoring you. Unlike yourself. I keep my word.

[davin]

Re: "The devil is here boy, the devil himself"

Honestly, I don't even understand the inquiry. Are you all really suggesting that education(and yet again, not academics) has no effect on violence?

Or is your stance: "Well, I think education might have an effect on violence, but I don't think you have any evidence for it."

I am interested in information regarding the following subjects:

"In 35 years, at any point in time, we can choose to stop raising murderers."

I would like to see how the types of education, not just school, have been proven in x circumstance or y circumstance. I will admit that there is a link between education and crime, I'm not stupid. However I want to see the research that proves that an enlightened or educated society can stop/severely reduce crime from what we know now. I want to see the methods by which that can be done.

I am noting that I have not taken a stance on this issue one way or the other. I think education is very important and agree that it has some effect. I am asking for this for a couple reasons. For one, the debate. The second, is that I would find it interesting personally to see how/if this is possible, then make up my own mind about it.

[countryboy]

Re: "The devil is here boy, the devil himself"

Born I have a question.

What is justice in your eyes? Not talking about this case in particular, just a simple question. What does justice mean to you?

Lets say hypothetically, that someone you knew or loved was, God forbid, murdered, assaulted, raped, or something along those lines. What would your intial reaction be? Lets say the police apprehend the suspect that committed this violent crime against one of your loved ones, what would you expect to be done to this person?

Now on the topic at hand. This is not intended at you Born, at least no personally. This is my feeling.

This SOB tortured, TORTURED, a young boy and his sister. He killed 4 members of this family after stalking them. He shot the young boy at point blank range in the head. He hung this boy until he passed out. He raped this young boy. He whipped this young boy. HOW IN THE HELL can anyone feel anything other than anger and hate towards this man?

Wanna say the man was psycho, fine. Then let the headline read psycho gets beaten with a belt, hung until he passed out, forced to perform sexual acts against his will, and let the final line read psycho shot point blank in the head.

I don't think the man is psycho. I think he's just a low-life, disgusting son of a bitch that deserves to suffer and pay for his actions.

[Bornindamecca]

Re: "The devil is here boy, the devil himself"

Crime and Education are clearly related, but not in this case. Less educated folk commit more crime, but it is mostly property and drug crime for obvious reasons.

I think the property crime you're talking about has more to do with a combination of economics and education than the kind of education I'm talking about.

To provide an example, I think the Virginia Tech incident was an example of preventable murder, via education. One failure of education was on behalf of Cho's peers at various points.* Middle class and upper middle class American teens often learn(through misinformation) that communal survival is a matter of cliques and discrimination of those outside of one's clique. This discrimination often begins a breakdown of behavior.

A great failure of education on Cho's behalf not only occurred inside of his own psychosis, but also on behalf of the structure around him. From the wiki:

The Virginia Tech Review Panel, a state-appointed body assigned to review the incident, criticized Virginia Tech administrators for failing to take action that might have reduced the number of casualties.The panel's report also reviewed gun laws and pointed out gaps in mental health care as well as misinterpretations of privacy laws and inherent flaws in the laws themselves that left Cho's deteriorating condition in college untreated.

Now way before this point, we have an example of a community not set up to deal with the social interactions of preteens and teens, which is one problem. On another level, once extreme behavior causes a case to be recognized, the reaction was insufficient.

A small blurb from the Columbine wiki

:
The reality of social cliques in high schools was a frequent topic of discussion. Many argued that the isolation of Klebold and Harris from the rest of their classmates prompted feelings of helplessness, insecurity and depression, as well as a strong need for attention. Some schools began programs to expose and stop school bullying, which was offered as a motivating factor for Harris and Klebold.<sup class="reference" id="cite_ref-12">[13]</sup>
Some commentators charged that school administrators and teachers at Columbine had long condoned a climate of bullying by the so-called "jocks" or athletes, allowing an atmosphere of outright intimidation and resentment to fester which, they claimed, could have helped trigger the perpetrators' extreme violence.<sup class="reference" id="cite_ref-13">[14]</sup>

The crux of the education I'm referring to is replacing the value of cliques and the subsequent effects of ostracism and depression. Our system teaches economics, trig and spelling, but it doesn't teach children how to find and value their own function. People who learn the make and measure of their function don't feel these effects as often, and when they do, the doorway out is much easier.

Different countries have different murder rates for different reasons.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Murder_rate#cite_note-un9-35

In some cases, social and academic education are huge factors. Cross reference the info, and the obvious flaws in various systems will appear.


Education and Economics

When people are destitute, crime takes on a different meaning because survival takes on a different meaning. That's not for this discussion.

In America, there are sections of society that have enough to live, but we have structures in place that put value on more than just living. Living is not enough. You have to have products that make you socially acceptable. This is reinforced in our advertisement, entertainment, and eventually many other social areas. This is miseducation(the effect of education swings both ways). When people commit crimes to attain something of meaningless value, society has failed. This happens very often.

When people feel alone, weak, powerless, depressed because they are lacking something of meaningless value, again societal failure.


To bring it back to the case that started off this thread...I issued a warning about a cycle. If you have a kid that is a much less intense version of Cho, and his parents watch this case and say the same things said in this thread, I think there is a very real possibility that the wrong message is reinforced: "People who do bad things are not people and deserve pain." Taking that situation out of the very specific, I think the same message is sent very often in our society, because of a tolerance of vengeance.

You don't have enough.
You don't belong.
They're different.
You're better than them.
Get them back.

People want to separate themselves from violent criminals, but often this same message is sent, received and reinforced by common men.

Sexual offenders are a different bag, because if you look at many of their histories, you'll find sexual abuse.


*Disclaimer: I am not saying that the victims of Columbine or Virginia Tech brought those tragedies on themselves. We have to divorce ourselves of that notion but maintain the ability to examine the cause and effect of our culture's flaws.

[countryboy]

Re: &quot;The devil is here boy, the devil himself&quot;

Let me tell you a culture flaw. That flaw is the fact that people are trying to educated sick bastards like the one in the story that triggered this thread. How many times do we have to keep putting murderers back on the streets only to see them kill again before we, as a culture, wake up and say enough is enough?

Everyone is so uptight about being politcally correct about this, that, or the other. As a child you are taught, "do unto others as you would have them do unto you". Where does the golden rule apply when it comes to murders, rapist, or crimes against children?

Too many times we look for the benefit of the doubt when it comes to these types of criminals. Too many times we look to makes excuses for them, instead of making examples out of them.

Society fails because we let it fail. No one is held accountable for their actions anymore. Everyone that commits a crime is excused for one reason or another by some group of people.

[Bornindamecca]

Re: &quot;The devil is here boy, the devil himself&quot;

Born I have a question.

What is justice in your eyes? Not talking about this case in particular, just a simple question. What does justice mean to you?

Lets say hypothetically, that someone you knew or loved was, God forbid, murdered, assaulted, raped, or something along those lines. What would your intial reaction be? Lets say the police apprehend the suspect that committed this violent crime against one of your loved ones, what would you expect to be done to this person?

Honestly, I'm not sure I believe in justice. I'm not trying to skirt the answer, but I really believe that right now. I have a family member who was assassinated, and I've known a couple of rape victims personally. After a certain point, tragedies like these became much more about changing the weakness in people that causes this, than getting them back.

Return violence doesn't balance the scales. If you want to test it out, go ahead. The next time someone mistreats you or a loved one, let go. Really and truly let go. Give them everything you think they deserve. If they beat you, beat them worse. If they insulted you, strip away their self worth until they want to commit suicide. If they've robbed you, ruin them. Do it until you feel that the scales are balanced.

After that, ask yourself these kinds of questions:
What kind of person am I?
Have I helped?
Are things better?
Who did I do this for?
Who has this affected?
What would a great man have done in my place?

That's my issue with justice. I'm not sure if it has a function in the ultimate survival of ideal humanity. Ideal humanity may be impossible, but if we don't make an effort to seek it, we guarantee ourselves more of the same.

Let me tell you a culture flaw. That flaw is the fact that people are trying to educated sick bastards like the one in the story that triggered this thread. How many times do we have to keep putting murderers back on the streets only to see them kill again before we, as a culture, wake up and say enough is enough?

Everyone is so uptight about being politcally correct about this, that, or the other. As a child you are taught, "do unto others as you would have them do unto you". Where does the golden rule apply when it comes to murders, rapist, or crimes against children?

Too many times we look for the benefit of the doubt when it comes to these types of criminals. Too many times we look to makes excuses for them, instead of making examples out of them.

Society fails because no one is held accountable for their actions anymore. Everyone that commits a crime is excused for one reason or another by some group of people.

I'm not excusing this guy. I've supported the death penalty in this case multiple times. What I don't support is us enjoying it. If we allow that, even in a fraction, we support a self destructive culture. I'm more than willing to accept that there are exceptions to the general rule. That there are people who are wired in a way that they are cancers to society. However, much of our crime and violence is attained virally.

"He was sadistic to them, so we should be sadistic to him."

In the first part of that statement, you have unjustified sadism. After the comma, justified sadism.

[TheMatrix31]

Re: &quot;The devil is here boy, the devil himself&quot;

Don't people understand that things like common laws or common logic DONT apply to situations such as these? The guy is so completely above and beyond deranged, that any law that would call for "rehabilitation" of a criminal gets thrown out the freakin' window. Education would do nothing for this "person".

[Brandon13]

Re: &quot;The devil is here boy, the devil himself&quot;

Don't people understand that things like common laws or common logic DONT apply to situations such as these? The guy is so completely above and beyond deranged, that any law that would call for "rehabilitation" of a criminal gets thrown out the freakin' window. Education would do nothing for this "person".

To be fair, Born pretty much expressed those sentiments in his last post.

[countryboy]

Re: &quot;The devil is here boy, the devil himself&quot;

Honestly, I'm not sure I believe in justice. I'm not trying to skirt the answer, but I really believe that right now. I have a family member who was assassinated, and I've known a couple of rape victims personally. After a certain point, tragedies like these became much more about changing the weakness in people that causes this, than getting them back.

I am truly sorry that you know persons that have been thru these types of crimes. I truly am.

Return violence doesn't balance the scales. If you want to test it out, go ahead. The next time someone mistreats you or a loved one, let go. Really and truly let go. Give them everything you think they deserve. If they beat you, beat them worse. If they insulted you, strip away their self worth until they want to commit suicide. If they've robbed you, ruin them. Do it until you feel that the scales are balanced.

After that, ask yourself these kinds of questions:
What kind of person am I?
Have I helped?
Are things better?
Who did I do this for?
Who has this affected?
What would a great man have done in my place?

That's my issue with justice. I'm not sure if it has a function in the ultimate survival of ideal humanity. Ideal humanity may be impossible, but if we don't make an effort to seek it, we guarantee ourselves more of the same.

You know what, I've "let it go" before. My younger sister was beaten by her ex-boyfriend once. And I am not ashamed to admit that beat the living hell out of that Son of a Bitch. Did I enjoy it? You bet your *** I did. And if that makes me less of man in your eyes or someone elses, well then, thats your problem. As a "great man" I feel its my duty to protect my family and its my right to protect myself and whats rightfully mine. I don't give two ****s about being politcally correct or whatnot. And education? Well I think that I educated my sister's ex. I'm pretty sure he learned something that day.

I don't condone any of the actions that I took, but I am not ashamed I took them. To me, a great man stands up and fights for whats right. And if that means that I have to use violence to protect someone, well then, I am going to do just that.

[Cebby]

Re: &quot;The devil is here boy, the devil himself&quot;

To provide an example, I think the Virginia Tech incident was an example of preventable murder, via education. One failure of education was on behalf of Cho's peers at various points.* Middle class and upper middle class American teens often learn(through misinformation) that communal survival is a matter of cliques and discrimination of those outside of one's clique. This discrimination often begins a breakdown of behavior.

Obviously the failure wasn't in the guy who buys a gun and murders 30 people. If Cho was physically abused by his peers, I could kind of see where you're coming from, but the kid was just weird. You'll also find "cliques" everywhere in every point of history, not just middle and upper class America. While most people think of cliques as a 1980s or 90s teen movie standpoint of "jocks" or "geeks", any group of friends could be considered a clique. Hell, in the Middle East and Africa, culture, religion, and race based cliques murder each other en mass. People always stick with people like them because that's what people do. Saying this is an American thing is completely ignorant.

Sexual offenders are a different bag, because if you look at many of their histories, you'll find sexual abuse.

That's not necessarily true. The overwhelming majority of criminals who claim abuse had never claimed it until they were charged with a crime.

Education would do nothing for this "person".

Maybe a little reeducation if you know what I mean.

[Bornindamecca]

Re: &quot;The devil is here boy, the devil himself&quot;

Obviously the failure wasn't in the guy who buys a gun and murders 30 people. If Cho was physically abused by his peers, I could kind of see where you're coming from, but the kid was just weird. You'll also find "cliques" everywhere in every point of history, not just middle and upper class America. While most people think of cliques as a 1980s or 90s teen movie standpoint of "jocks" or "geeks", any group of friends could be considered a clique. Hell, in the Middle East and Africa, culture, religion, and race based cliques murder each other en mass. People always stick with people like them because that's what people do. Saying this is an American thing is completely ignorant.

No, it's isolating the example in specificity, and looking at problem solving within those specific cultural parameters. I never said or implied that it was only an American problem.

But you're ignoring a whole host of points, and extracting one part out of context. You're ignoring the failures of education clearly stated here, which I knew would happen for reasons I already stated. There is a difference between a dialectic and a need to justify one's own emotions, and right now we are on opposite sides of that line.

[Bornindamecca]

Re: &quot;The devil is here boy, the devil himself&quot;

You know what, I've "let it go" before. My younger sister was beaten by her ex-boyfriend once. And I am not ashamed to admit that beat the living hell out of that Son of a Bitch. Did I enjoy it? You bet your *** I did.

What did you do to him exactly?
Do you take this action every time you're slighted?(non physical assaults count)
Was this protection or justice? I agree with the former, but not the latter. I support the death penalty as a protective measure, but not as a measure of justice, which is why I ask.

As a "great man" I feel its my duty to protect my family and its my right to protect myself and whats rightfully mine.

I think that's your right and duty as a man, period. I don't think that has anything to do with greatness.

And if that makes me less of man in your eyes or someone elses, well then, thats your problem.

Please don't perceive this as a judgment on you personally. I'm having a discussion about principles that are bigger than you and I. If I have a question about your character I'll let you know directly, and there will be no mistaking it.

[The Chef]

Re: &quot;The devil is here boy, the devil himself&quot;

Wow this thread really took off, Im a little clueless why Born sits in here preaching to everyone after he said he was going to leave this thread but apparently the desire to debate with everyone over and over again was too much of a draw. Carry on, interesting on some levels, downright annoying on others.

[Bornindamecca]

Re: &quot;The devil is here boy, the devil himself&quot;

Wow this thread really took off, Im a little clueless why Born sits in here preaching to everyone after he said he was going to leave this thread but apparently the desire to debate with everyone over and over again was too much of a draw. Carry on, interesting on some levels, downright annoying on others.

I said unless a different perspective was offered. People thought I was attacking them personally, and that's not my intention, so I thought that should be cleared up. Credit to Cebby for introducing an actual problem solving point that I thought steered it away from the direction it was going.