"The devil is here boy, the devil himself"

[countryboy]

Re: "The devil is here boy, the devil himself"

What did you do to him exactly?
Do you take this action every time you're slighted?(non physical assaults count)
Was this protection or justice? I agree with the former, but not the latter. I support the death penalty as a protective measure, but not as a measure of justice, which is why I ask.

What I actually did to him is beside the point. And no, I don't attack someone anytime I feel slighted. Was this protection or justice? To me its both. He hit my baby sister with his fists. So I felt that by "educating" him I was protecting her from any future attacks and doing justice by my sister.

Quick question on the death penalty. How can one differentiate between excuting someone for protection vs justice? Isn't it one in the same? You execute a murderer, aren't you protecting society from him murderng anyone else at the same time giving justice to the family that was victimized?

I think that's your right and duty as a man, period. I don't think that has anything to do with greatness.

I agree with that. But you made it sound as though a great man would never react on revenge. You make it seem that since someone seeks justice they are somehow savages.

Please don't perceive this as a judgment on you personally. I'm having a discussion about principles that are bigger than you and I. If I have a question about your character I'll let you know directly, and there will be no mistaking it.

I should've added "their" to that statement so that it didn't come across to personal, but at the same token, you trying to portray yourself as a better than me because you don't condone violence(I am getting to this point because of the questioning you are laying in front of me) is definitely questioning my character whether you mean to or not. And that, I don't appreciate.

Let me ask you another question. Lets say you're out with your girl and a man comes up and for some odd reason, slaps her in the face. What are going to do? Whip his ***, or try to educate him? Just curious.

[Cebby]

Re: "The devil is here boy, the devil himself"

But you're ignoring a whole host of points, and extracting one part out of context. You're ignoring the failures of education clearly stated here, which I knew would happen for reasons I already stated. There is a difference between a dialectic and a need to justify one's own emotions, and right now we are on opposite sides of that line.

If there was a systematic failure of education that led to the Virginia Tech massacre, I would think that it would be far more common for these events to happen.

As it is, there has only been one mass murder of 30+ people. There have been 3 total shootings that have killed 20+. There have only been 8 total shootings that have killed 10 plus. Now, that's still a lot, but if there were such major systemic problems, I would think that in the last 42 years, there would be more than 8 shootings of 10+ people. Instead, evidence is pointing to Cho being a crazy man than the billion or so Americans during that time who didn't murder 30+ people.

[Bornindamecca]

Re: "The devil is here boy, the devil himself"

If there was a systematic failure of education that led to the Virginia Tech massacre, I would think that it would be far more common for these events to happen.

The system failure causes and/or enhances depression and self loathing. People handle that in different ways.

[Bornindamecca]

Re: "The devil is here boy, the devil himself"

What I actually did to him is beside the point.

It's very important, from my perspective. The severity of physical response gives the information to satisfy the criteria of vengeance, justice, sadism and/or protection. Without knowing exactly what you did, I can't give you an opinion on whether or not I feel it falls into the realm of just action or extreme action.

Quick question on the death penalty. How can one differentiate between excuting someone for protection vs justice? Isn't it one in the same? You execute a murderer, aren't you protecting society from him murderng anyone else at the same time giving justice to the family that was victimized?

The distinction is very, very important. Prevention is efficient. Justice is a more gray, interpretive measure.

[Cebby]

Re: "The devil is here boy, the devil himself"

The system failure causes and/or enhances depression and self loathing. People handle that in different ways.

So how do we handle biological depression and by extension, bi-polar and other mood disorders and even PMS?

[Bornindamecca]

Re: "The devil is here boy, the devil himself"

So how do we handle biological depression and by extension, bi-polar and other mood disorders and even PMS?

Honestly, I think we have a lot of work to do in that area. The simple answer is support. The complex answer would take this thread in another direction, but I think it's a good discussion. I haven't done enough research to ultimately condemn or condone medication, but I don't trust the pharmaceutical industry's performance or involvement up to this point.

In the case of Cho, I think upon finding out about his condition, the people around him didn't do their best. I also don't think we've put people in a position to do their best in a lot of ways. Until these kids started shooting their classmates, most people with money didn't want to hear about these issues.

[countryboy]

Re: "The devil is here boy, the devil himself"

It's very important, from my perspective. The severity of physical response gives the information to satisfy the criteria of vengeance, justice, sadism and/or protection. Without knowing exactly what you did, I can't give you an opinion on whether or not I feel it falls into the realm of just action or extreme action.

I don't care what your opinion of my actions are. When I feel the need to live up to your expectations I'll let you know. Until then....

But I'll ask my question to you again. If you are out with your girl and some man for some reason, attacks her(I said slaps her in the face in my previous post) what would you do? Whip his *** or try to educate him, or are you going to try and educate your girl so that she isn't so weak and vulnerable?

The distinction is very, very important. Prevention is efficient. Justice is a more gray, interpretive measure.

thats nice and all, but how about answering the question.

[Bornindamecca]

Re: "The devil is here boy, the devil himself"

I don't care what your opinion of my actions are. When I feel the need to live up to your expectations I'll let you know. Until then....

You entered your personal situation into the discussion, not me. I spoke about justice and revenge for a moment, and you submitted your actions as an example. Now you're turning on me for asking questions?

I'm not going to sit here and posture about whether or not you defending your sister was right or wrong. I have no problem with dismissing personal issues from the discussion. Honestly, I prefer to do so.

As for your question, I didn't answer because I don't see how it relates. If a threat is immediate, justice and education take a back seat to survival, regardless of the specifics of the situation.

[OSUFan_88]

Re: "The devil is here boy, the devil himself"

Justice should always take priority over Rehabilitation.

The fact that the court system takes it so easy on murders, people who rape, child molesters isn't good. One time an you're in Jail for life or you're sent to die.

If you make examples out of people, soon enough you're going to see a lot less killing, rapes and child molesters. I can tell you that much.

[countryboy]

Re: "The devil is here boy, the devil himself"

You entered your personal situation into the discussion, not me. I spoke about justice and revenge for a moment, and you submitted your actions as an example. Now you're turning on me for asking questions?

I'm not going to sit here and posture about whether or not you defending your sister was right or wrong. I have no problem with dismissing personal issues from the discussion. Honestly, I prefer to do so.

As for your question, I didn't answer because I don't see how it relates. If a threat is immediate, justice and education take a back seat to survival, regardless of the specifics of the situation.

No I am not turning on you for asking questions. I brought it up because I was using it as an example to show you how I feel, how I would handle a situation. You made the comment about "letting it go" and asking myself questions afterwards. So, I provided an example as to when that situation occured.

As for my question, it does relate. You questioned my actions about defending my sister and asked me to provide specifics as to what I did so that you could give your opinion as to whether or not I was right or wrong in my actions. So I asked you to put yourself in a postition that I was in, or something along the lines to see what your reaction would be. Instead of answering the question, your going to sidestep it I suppose.

You say that if a threat is immediate than justice and education take a back seat to survival, well that leaves me to ask this question. At what point is a murderer not an immediate threat to someone, whether that be the general population, another immediate, or a correctional officier?

Let me ask you something else, point blank. You said that people that are victimized are done so because they are weak or vulnerable. Is it your thoughts then that someone who is victimized is at fault because they let themselves be victimized?

[countryboy]

Re: "The devil is here boy, the devil himself"

Justice should always take priority over Rehabilitation.

The fact that the court system takes it so easy on murders, people who rape, child molesters isn't good. One time an you're in Jail for life or you're sent to die.

If you make examples out of people, soon enough you're going to see a lot less killing, rapes and child molesters. I can tell you that much.

[Bornindamecca]

Re: "The devil is here boy, the devil himself"

You questioned my actions about defending my sister and asked me to provide specifics as to what I did so that you could give your opinion as to whether or not I was right or wrong in my actions.

This is our biggest misunderstanding. I wasn't going to judge your reaction to say whether it was right or wrong. I was looking at the situation in general, which occurs shamefully often in society: A women is beaten.

Now for obvious reasons, physical retaliation from the males in her life also often occurs. I was asking you about specifics to see if your situation fit the criteria which I previously set to ask those questions. It's not about right or wrong. It's about discussing justice, sadism, protection etc.

Whenever our safety is threatened, we are faced with the dilemma of preserving our lives(and our loved ones lives), as well as preserving our own humanity. These same issues are what our judicial system ruminates over when separating manslaughter from self defense.

As for my question, it does relate. You questioned my actions about defending my sister and asked me to provide specifics as to what I did so that you could give your opinion as to whether or not I was right or wrong in my actions. So I asked you to put yourself in a postition that I was in, or something along the lines to see what your reaction would be. Instead of answering the question, your going to sidestep it I suppose.

I'm not answering because I'm not sure if your situation relates to the discussion. So if your real life situation doesn't relate, how could a hypothetical situation with me relate?

You say that if a threat is immediate than justice and education take a back seat to survival, well that leaves me to ask this question. At what point is a murderer not an immediate threat to someone, whether that be the general population, another immediate, or a correctional officier?

If a murderer is incarcerated in an appropriate facility, I'd say he is not an immediate threat to society. Case by case, variables are there, but that's the general rule.

Let me ask you something else, point blank. You said that people that are victimized are done so because they are weak or vulnerable. Is it your thoughts then that someone who is victimized is at fault because they let themselves be victimized?

The victimizer is weak, not the victim. The victim's situation is an unfortunate result of this weakness. The victimized and their loved ones tend to feel weak and threatened at this point, and react. With the proper support, that reaction is to heal and not to destroy.

For instance, I know someone who was raped and absolutely demanded that no one in her life try to retaliate. She healed with counseling and the support of her loved ones. In another identical situation, the woman chose to counsel others who had been in the same situation, to coach them out of a loneliness and helplessness that only she understood.

[countryboy]

Re: "The devil is here boy, the devil himself"

I'm not answering because I'm not sure if your situation relates to the discussion. So if your real life situation doesn't relate, how could a hypothetical situation with me relate?

Ok, so it doesn't relate. Why not answer the question?

For instance, I know someone who was raped and absolutely demanded that no one in her life try to retaliate. She healed with counseling and the support of her loved ones. In another identical situation, the woman chose to counsel others who had been in the same situation, to coach them out of a loneliness and helplessness that only she understood.

Ok, lets say that one of these two females had wanted someone to retaliate. Would the retailation be justified? Or would you deem it as sadistic?


See this is what I don't get. Talking about the story of this thread.

You are upset enough at the actions of the SOB that did these crimes to the point that you support putting him to death. But you don't want people to get a sense of enjoyment out of him being put to death, if it goes to that. But the SOB got "enjoyment" out of torturing two young kids and murdering their family and got "enjoyment" out of shooting a young boy in the head at point blank range. He got "enjoyment" out of sexually molesting a young boy. So whats wrong with the general public getting a sense of "enjoyment" out of this SOB being put to death? The only difference, is that his death will be quick and painless, unlike the death of a young boy.

[Bornindamecca]

Re: "The devil is here boy, the devil himself"

You are upset enough at the actions of the SOB that did these crimes to the point that you support putting him to death. But you don't want people to get a sense of enjoyment out of him being put to death, if it goes to that. But the SOB got "enjoyment" out of torturing two young kids and murdering their family and got "enjoyment" out of shooting a young boy in the head at point blank range. He got "enjoyment" out of sexually molesting a young boy. So whats wrong with the general public getting a sense of "enjoyment" out of this SOB being put to death? The only difference, is that his death will be quick and painless, unlike the death of a young boy.

Because then his sadism becomes contagious, and now a bunch of otherwise normal people have justified sadism. Putting him to death is a last resort, and it's always regretful when a human being is so damaged that death is the best option for them. If people don't enjoy it, then we send a different message.

"We don't enjoy or condone sadism under any circumstances, and his actions won't change us."

That closes the door on a whole lot of human weakness.

[countryboy]

Re: "The devil is here boy, the devil himself"

Because then his sadism becomes contagious, and now a bunch of otherwise normal people have justified sadism. Putting him to death is a last resort, and it's always regretful when a human being is so damaged that death is the best option for them. If people don't enjoy it, then we send a different message.

"We don't enjoy or condone sadism under any circumstances, and his actions won't change us."

That closes the door on a whole lot of human weakness.

How is it sadism? Putting a man to death isn't sadism in my opinion. Like I said, his death would be basically pain free. He's not tortured. He is taken to a room, given injections with a needle and then he slowly dies.

Are you saying that those who feel the death penalty is a worthy form of punishment are sadistic?

I am completely and utterly shocked that you call putting a man to death for his actions upon innocent people is sadistic. Especially when those actions include things such as were involved in this case.