What do you guys think - Wrong or Justified?

[NDAlum]

Re: What do you guys think - Wrong or Justified?

Based on the totality of the circumstances I just wouldn't be able to go the 1st degree avenue.

[NDAlum]

Re: What do you guys think - Wrong or Justified?

Well most DA go for the higher charge so I am sure they will get a lesser charge. I figure going and getting another gun was a planned act. But after you explained the difference I can see how that is second degree murder, I think.

Even though I disagree I hope you're on the jury if I ever have a big trial like that where I'm a witness/investigator to a crime!

[Scottdau]

Re: What do you guys think - Wrong or Justified?

I never really been a big fan of second degree or first degree murder. If you kill someone the way this guy did I say that is just as bad as first degree. It just an opinion though.

[Scottdau]

Re: What do you guys think - Wrong or Justified?

Even though I disagree I hope you're on the jury if I ever have a big trial like that where I'm a witness/investigator to a crime!

I doubt I would ever be on a jury. I am a teacher at Juvenile Hall. Every time I get called they reject me.

[Knight165]

Re: What do you guys think - Wrong or Justified?

I never really been a big fan of second degree or first degree murder. If you kill someone the way this guy did I say that is just as bad as first degree. It just an opinion though.

You really cannot separate this from someone who say hires someone to kill his wife....or a woman who slowly poison's her husband over a month or so with rat poison in his cereal?.....just because they want to run away with someone else or want the spouse's money?

THAT is pre-meditated....first degree murder.


M.K.
Knight165

[Scottdau]

Re: What do you guys think - Wrong or Justified?

You really cannot separate this from someone who say hires someone to kill his wife....or a woman who slowly poison's her husband over a month or so with rat poison in his cereal?.....just because they want to run away with someone else or want the spouse's money?

THAT is pre-meditated....first degree murder.


M.K.
Knight165

I get your point but he went and got another gun and kill the kid knight. That to me is just as bad as those other things. But I get what you mean.

[12]

Re: What do you guys think - Wrong or Justified?

The Initial shooting was justified self defense, from there on it's murder. If he had shot the guy, and he was still trying to pull something, shooting again would be fine as well. But putting 5 rounds into an incapacitated person, is taking it way too far.

Absolutely. I work in Law Enforcement and yeah, the five rounds put into the guy who already had a gunshot wound to the head was a bit much and he's going to have one hell of a time justifying that.

His initial acts were defensible, but after that... Not so much.

I work in a prison. If I stop a threat... Say an inmate attacked me and I disarmed him and ended the threat, I can't go back and stomp him out. I could, but I'd be facing some very stiff consequences. The same applies here.

It was too much.

[12]

Re: What do you guys think - Wrong or Justified?

Yeah, I agree with Scott. It was absolutely pre-meditated. If the guy went and got another gun, and pumped five more shots in a man with a possible fatal wound (it was probably just a matter of time before he died anyway), then the act was murder. I don't like saying that because I love stories where robbers get handled, but not like this.

People say the world doesn't operate in black and white, but this isn't "A Time to Kill" here. Juries DO often operate in black and white. The facts are the facts, and it doesn't look good for the guy. I think we can all agree the first shot was more than justified, but after that? He probably wasn't in his right mind, but I supervise inmates every day who committed their acts under the influence of something and juries don't see the difference. The end result was a crime.

This really is a tough one, but if you're being logical here, the man deserves the murder charge. It's sad, but let's be real here. Five shots? He was pissed that he didn't catch the other assailants, so he returned and made sure one of them paid the ultimate price.

[12]

Re: What do you guys think - Wrong or Justified?

So, you don't know the difference then?

From the Legal Dictionary:

The specific criteria for first degree murder are established by statute in each state and by the United States Code in federal prosecutions. It is distinguished from second degree murder in which premeditation is usually absent, and from manslaughter which lacks premeditation and suggests that at most there was intent to harm rather than to kill.

1. Each state determines what is first degree murder. It can and does vary.

2. While the original intent to kill might have been absent in this case, the RETURNING to the wounded and putting five rounds in him with a different gun screams of premeditation. I don't think the man planned to kill the assailant when the robbery first took place, but once the other assailants escaped, he made a point to return to the wounded and rather than call the cops, he executed him. Explain it any other way that you wish. I wasn't there nor did I see what transpired from the time he returned to the wounded assailant to the time he pulled the trigger five times, but if I am on a jury and was devoid of those facts, I have to believe that some vengeance and planning took place.

3. Nothing suggests that there was intent to harm the perpetrator, but rather to kill him. Six rounds were spent on him.

Like I said, it's tough because you want to see justice served. Robbers are criminals who often kill people, but there's a time when you take it too far, and I believe the man who is being charged took it too far.

[12]

Re: What do you guys think - Wrong or Justified?

You mean his own place of business?
Of course he's going back there.

Scott....You just are not grasping the difference between 1st Degree Murder(PRE MEDITATED) ....and 2nd degree murder which is the heat of the moment.
In the "heat of the moment" while it is still murder, it is usually because of an act of wrong doing against the defendant that precedes the act of killing.
I would argue that for any chance of 1st degree murder, you would have to prove that the pharmacist told someone "the next person that robs my store...I'm shooting dead" and THAT would probably be a stretch.
You can believe what you want about going back for the second gun minutes later, but that doesn't change the fact that you don't understand true pre-meditation.
It sounds like the DA doesn't either, so you're in some company there.


M.K.
Knight165

Yeah, this makes sense.

The question here is time. What time frame defines first degree murder?

Working in the setting I work in, I've seen people charged with first degree murder on a lot less.

[kehlis]

Re: What do you guys think - Wrong or Justified?

From the Legal Dictionary:

The specific criteria for first degree murder are established by statute in each state and by the United States Code in federal prosecutions. It is distinguished from second degree murder in which premeditation is usually absent, and from manslaughter which lacks premeditation and suggests that at most there was intent to harm rather than to kill.

1. Each state determines what is first degree murder. It can and does vary.

2. While the original intent to kill might have been absent in this case, the RETURNING to the wounded and putting five rounds in him with a different gun screams of premeditation. I don't think the man planned to kill the assailant when the robbery first took place, but once the other assailants escaped, he made a point to return to the wounded and rather than call the cops, he executed him. Explain it any other way that you wish. I wasn't there nor did I see what transpired from the time he returned to the wounded assailant to the time he pulled the trigger five times, but if I am on a jury and was devoid of those facts, I have to believe that some vengeance and planning took place.

You don't think he intended to kill him when he shot him in the head?

[TheShizNo1]

Scottdau, apostle, are you guys not familiar w/ rage, blacking out, adrenaline?

The guy was put in a situation in either A. He's never been in or B. He could have been in too much. No one but him knows what went on in his head.

[NDAlum]

Re: What do you guys think - Wrong or Justified?

#1 - It depends on where the event happened, down to what county the prosecution takes place.
#2 - His lawyer must have been terrible. No way should you ever get 1st degree murder for protecting your store. It is way too easy to articulate his actions in this case to dismiss 1st degree.

Like I said before, the prosecution probably gave him the option of pleading to 2nd degree murder or having a trial where 1st degree and manslaughter were the only options to the jury.

Maybe this is a case of an arrogant old man who felt as though nothing should happen?

In my opinion, he crossed the line but 1st degree would not even be an option for me. 2nd degree includes "heat of the moment" type situations. To me that falls under this category.

[Trevytrev11]

Re: What do you guys think - Wrong or Justified?

Scott and Apostle...do you honestly think that this guy, who was just held up at gun point a few minutes prior to doing what he did, was in a clear and "normal" state of mind?

In your life when you have been in traumatic experiences (major car accidents, home burglary, family emergencies, near-death experiences, etc.)? And if so, were you thinking 100% clearly and normal within minutes of those incidents? Apostle, this may not be as big of an issue to you due to the fact that in your line of work, you have been accustomed to it. But think of the other people in your life and how they have reacted.

If you cannot answer 100% yes to that question, then how can you hold this guy to that standard? Whether it was 1 minute of 5 minutes, this guys is not going to be in a "normal" state of mind when he did what he did. I'm not justifiying what he did...I am just saying that it is different from being attacked and reacting "in the heat of the moment" as others have said, then say, stalking a victim, sneaking into their house and killing them in their sleep.

All I know is that the few times I have been put into those situations, I'm not in a normal state of mind. I'm jittery, a bit light headed, my mind is going 100MPH, my heart is racing, adrenaline is pumping, etc...I'm not normal.

[Trevytrev11]

Re: What do you guys think - Wrong or Justified?

The question here is time. What time frame defines first degree murder?

I would think state of mind is more important than time frame, though both are relevant.

IMO, to pre meditate a murder, one has to do so in a clear state of mind. The planning has to take place while the killers mind is free and clear of any immediate stress that would directly lead to the result of murder.

A guy walks in on his wife in bed with another dude for the first time. Then in a rage walks 100' across the house, gets his gun, loads it with ammo and then walks back and blows them both away, IMO, is not pre-mediated. It's a reaction to the situation.

A guy knows his wife is cheating, gets on her email and finds out that she has a meeting with a guy at a hotel. The guy buys a gun, waits outside in the parking lot and then walks in on them both, IMP is pre-mediated. In this case, they guy has had time to process the situation and think about the outcome of his actions ahead of time.

In the first situation, what if the guy just snapped and beat the guy and his wife around for 5 to 10 minutes before going across the house to get the gun, loading it and putting a bullet in his head...to me, it doesn't make a difference as he's still in a state of rage.