What is wrong with our society?

[kehlis]

Re: What is wrong with our society?

See above - Everyone responds to mental illness differently thus it would follow that some mentally ill people kill while others don't.

And the ones who kill deserve the same punishment anyone else would get.

Mental state shouldn't be a get of jail free card especially when it comes to the detriment of others.

[ubernoob]

Re: What is wrong with our society?

I would also venture to say that, aside from an infinitesimal amount of cases, everybody that does kill someone is mentally ill. Not a stretch to say that.

[RAZRr1275]

Re: What is wrong with our society?

So isn't that what I'm saying? That people do these things because they want to and just claim mental illness "Oh sorry bro, I'm sick, I don't realize that I just shot a bunch of people dead. Feel bad for me please."

Okay I think I get what you're saying. You're using mentally ill in a legal sense instead of a practical one. In that case I agree that that's about what happens. My interest is more in why people would do such a thing because they want to and that question is only answered to me as in they have some sort of mental illness/disorder that causes them to rationalize things in that fashion that it it is not their fault that they posses.

Mentally ill relative to what? Relative to social norms? Because it isnt socially normal to be evil. Maybe evil is a mental disorder and we should pander and apologize for all evil in the world as well.

This kid deserves no sympathy. Making a conscious effort to torture the families of the victims while he is in the courtroom pretty much tells me he is the worst kind of person in the world. Mentally ill my ***.

In this case mentally ill defined as some disorder that causes an individual to rationalize in a way that makes killing people for no reason okay. I'm not sure how seeking to understand someone or not destroying them constitutes apologizing.

I think he does. It's not his fault that he thinks in the way that he does. The problem is all of you are assuming your rationale, not one which is obviously extremely different from yours that people such as the shooter possesses as evidenced by his actions. Not everyone thinks the way you do and in some cases people don't think differently on their own accord.

[RAZRr1275]

Re: What is wrong with our society?

And the ones who kill deserve the same punishment anyone else would get.

Mental state shouldn't be a get of jail free card especially when it comes to the detriment of others.

This is just taking what I said out of context. When did I say anything about a get out of jail free card? I said that we should seek to understand this variety of mental illness and should not execute or torture people who exhibit it as many people in this thread called for doing.

I would also venture to say that, aside from an infinitesimal amount of cases, everybody that does kill someone is mentally ill. Not a stretch to say that.

Glad we could come to an agreement there.

Sorry about the double post - these comments came while I was typing and I don't know how to edit additional quotes into a post

[ubernoob]

Re: What is wrong with our society?

It's NOT his fault that he feels the way he does.

It is ENTIRELY his fault that he acts the way he does.

[RAZRr1275]

Re: What is wrong with our society?

It's NOT his fault that he feels the way he does.

It is ENTIRELY his fault that he acts the way he does.

I'd argue that the two are equivalent in this case. Since mental illness works differently in different people I would argue 1) that the feelings are not the same and vary from case to case in exactly how they function (take other feeling based measurements as example - my 10 is not your 10 is not someone else's 10 and that they are is a nonfalsifiable claim as you can not experience anything from my perception of pain) and 2) That his specific breed of mental illness and the way that he responded to it (neither of which are things that he can necessarily choose - probably created from some sort of nature/nurture aspect) created a condition in which the act necessarily has to follow the feelings. Notice the specificity - this applies only for him and likely for other killers for their specific mental illness and response.

As a note in order to not ignore the forest so to speak I'm coming from a point of view that there is no absolute truth, that ethics are a construct, etc.

[ScoobySnax]

The bottom line is he doesn't deserve to be amongst the living.

[TheMatrix31]

Re: What is wrong with our society?

I'm saying it from a practical AND legal point of view.

[z Revis]

Mentally ill relative to what? Relative to social norms? Because it isnt socially normal to be evil. Maybe evil is a mental disorder and we should pander and apologize for all evil in the world as well.

This kid deserves no sympathy. Making a conscious effort to torture the families of the victims while he is in the courtroom pretty much tells me he is the worst kind of person in the world. Mentally ill my ***.

There is something wrong with him though. You're not a normal same human being when you just killed a bunch of people and then walked into a courtroom flipping the victims families off while wearing a t shirt that says killer on it. He IS mentally ill.

That said what are you going to do about it? He deserves to rot in prison for his actions. It shouldn't matter what's wrong with him.


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[Brandon13]

Outside of gang/drug violence, I'd venture to say that most murders are committed by individuals who are, to some varying degree, mentally ill. Still, that does not absolve the wrongdoer of responsibility for his actions and, in most cases, the presence of mental illness should have minimal impact upon sentencing.

But we are terrible at dealing with mentally ill individuals who have already been identified as a high-risk to others. Instead of decisive action being taken, far too often there is no follow up and the high-risk individual gets lost in the bureaucracy of the process.

Add to that, most of us in the general populous would rather not become involved in someone else's life, and we're left with a difficult situation to correct.

[RAZRr1275]

Re: What is wrong with our society?

Outside of gang/drug violence, I'd venture to say that most murders are committed by individuals who are, to some varying degree, mentally ill. Still, that does not absolve the wrongdoer of responsibility for his actions and, in most cases, the presence of mental illness should have minimal impact upon sentencing.

But we are terrible at dealing with mentally ill individuals who have already been identified as a high-risk to others. Instead of decisive action being taken, far too often there is no follow up and the high-risk individual gets lost in the bureaucracy of the process.

Add to that, most of us in the general populous would rather not become involved in someone else's life, and we're left with a difficult situation to correct.

I totally agree with this. Sentencing should be as normal, we need to kill the stigma that all mentally ill people are bad, and identify and continue to check in on high risk one to make sure that they don't have the means to carry out violent crime.

[DaveDQ]

Re: What is wrong with our society?

I find it interesting that this "mental illness" doesn't prevent him from taking care of himself. It doesn't pose a threat to him. Why is that? Why is it that he can sit back and pull himself together to make it a point to try and pour salt on the wound here? Why doesn't his mental illness prevent him from operating at full capacity there?

You would think if someone was truly mentally ill that there would be no control over how or what they do. Yet, he has the mental capacity to make an attempt to get a rise out of people by flipping them off and smirking at them.

This kid premeditates his actions. He is in full control and we insult the intelligence of people by claiming he lacks control of himself because of an instability in his mind. Do we really believe that? The kid should be tortured until his heart bursts from the stress of being tortured.

[Blzer]

Re: What is wrong with our society?

I don't remember hearing about this shooting, but man that kid is one cold-hearted SOB. People like that don't even deserve to live. Forget lethal injection, bring back electrocution for his ***. Tax dollars shouldn't even be spent keeping his *** in prison. Unbelievable.

I know you're recommending the chair, but that aside, lethal injection is more expensive than life in prison.

[Brandon13]

You would think if someone was truly mentally ill that there would be no control over how or what they do.

That's a very narrow definition of mental illness you've constructed there.

[daflyboys]

Re: What is wrong with our society?

I know you're recommending the chair, but that aside, lethal injection is more expensive than life in prison.

Seems unlikely. Source?