What is wrong with our society?

[ubernoob]

Seems unlikely. Source?

He's right and wrong.

The cost of the injection itself is only around 1200-ish. The cost of the trial is insanely high (like 1.5-2x the cost of a life sentence trial) and the jailing itself is more expensive.

There's plenty of articles out there, just do a Google search on "true cost of lethal injection" or something like that. There was a big deal about it a couple years ago.

[Brandon13]

It's largely a result of added costs due to the extensive appeals process associated with the death penalty.

[RAZRr1275]

Re: What is wrong with our society?

I find it interesting that this "mental illness" doesn't prevent him from taking care of himself. It doesn't pose a threat to him. Why is that? Why is it that he can sit back and pull himself together to make it a point to try and pour salt on the wound here? Why doesn't his mental illness prevent him from operating at full capacity there?

You would think if someone was truly mentally ill that there would be no control over how or what they do. Yet, he has the mental capacity to make an attempt to get a rise out of people by flipping them off and smirking at them.

This kid premeditates his actions. He is in full control and we insult the intelligence of people by claiming he lacks control of himself because of an instability in his mind. Do we really believe that? The kid should be tortured until his heart bursts from the stress of being tortured.

He shot people and is in jail for the rest of his life. I don't know a time when that constitutes taking care of yourself in any sense of the phrase. It doesn't pose a threat to him at the moment because it may or may not be the sort of mental illness that poses a threat to its possessor. Besides, until he does something like self harms or kills himself there's no way of telling what he's thinking about doing to himself. Again, different mental illnessess, different people mean different capacity to function. You can have a person with a mental illness who is entirely capable of functioning normally and another with the same mental illness who goes on a murderous rampage.

Depends on what you mean by control. Just because someone can think about things in that way doesn't mean that they have control. For example, a depressed person may intentionally not complete a task that it is imperative that they do or decide not to attend an important social event on a non accidental, premeditated basis basis. The more important question, then, becomes why did a person make the decision that they did. Again throw something like depression in the mix and the response may be something rational that you'd expect like "I was too tired" "I felt sick" or something like that. Then the question becomes another why - Point being if one keeps asking why a certain action/excuse was created even something that appears premeditated may be influenced by a mental illness that alters the way that one would think from what they would normally think to the way a person exhibiting personality traits that would be associated with mental illness (with other symptoms, depending on case something to trigger the symptoms etc) would think i.e. reclusiveness or lack of motivation in my example. Whatever sort of mental illness that would cause someone to kill like that probably functions in the same way - it looks like he's in control but his course of thoughts is somewhat predetermined. It's not a insult to intelligence to say that someone failed to do something on a thought out basis in light of other mental illness like schizophrenia etc so I don't see why that would be any different in the type that causes one to commit premeditated murder.

[Fresh Tendrils]

Re: What is wrong with our society?

Its more concerning to me that a rape victim gets more death threats than the actual rapists, but judging from certain remarks and quotes in the news last year its still apparent that rape isn't taken too seriously in this society.

[JODYE]

Re: What is wrong with our society?

The OPs original question is too broad, and really I could write a paper on this topic.

First I want to say, I agree that things like this have been happening for a long time, it's just now with social media and 24 hour news reporting, and the news outlets trying to pump fear through the airwaves as often as possible, we hear about it all immediately now.

And I think this topic was kind of touched on in an earlier thread, but I really think it has to do with the lack of parenting, and the way children are coddled in every sense of the word. There are obviously other factors in it as well, so I don't mean to simplify it to that extent but I think this is where it derives from.

Parents that aren't ready to take care of another human being, letting these kids grow up by using video games and television as a baby sitter and not teaching them morals and the difference between right and wrong first hand. Also, the way everyone now has to be a winner, and everything has to be fair, that when they get into an environment that isn't that way, they can't handle it, because news flash, life ISN'T fair, and you don't always get everything that YOU want and you're not always the best.

Obviously, there are always going to be the cases where someone is genuinely mentally ill. It happens unfortunately, and with something like that, it's unavoidable but all I have to say, is we all need to be better. Better parents, better teachers, better examples for kids, and better at preparing them for the harsh world they will enter on their own some day.

[Cletus]

Re: What is wrong with our society?

Its more concerning to me that a rape victim gets more death threats than the actual rapists, but judging from certain remarks and quotes in the news last year its still apparent that rape isn't taken too seriously in this society.

It's not. Usually you hear things like "she was asking for it" and "look how she dresses". Modern society is all about entitlement and what I call the "do you know who I am?" syndrome. People have pride but not self control. Of course the girl got death threats, if it weren't for anonymous, there would not have been one arrest in the case. Even watching the news now they talk about how they were football players first and foremost. I've even heard people take up for them and say the girl was drunk. Not sure how you can have sympathy for the kids when one of them puts a video on youtube like he did.

[shugknight]

Re: What is wrong with our society?

I say we go with the less subtle approach.

If they rape someone, cut off their junk.

If they kill someone, cut off their hands.

[DaveDQ]

Re: What is wrong with our society?

That's a very narrow definition of mental illness you've constructed there.

I wasn't constructing anything. This boy is depraved. He did something entirely evil and made it clear with his actions in court that he was completely aware and conscious of what he did. He wrote on his shirt, "killer." He told the victims' families that he now masturbates over the memories of what he did.

Rather than broadening the meaning of mental illness, why don't we call this what it is. Premeditated murder. And if we continue to broaden this idea of mental illness, where does it stop? Are we now able to explain why a man or woman rushes into a home to rob a family of its possessions by claiming mental illness?

[daflyboys]

Re: What is wrong with our society?

He's right and wrong.

The cost of the injection itself is only around 1200-ish. The cost of the trial is insanely high (like 1.5-2x the cost of a life sentence trial) and the jailing itself is more expensive.

There's plenty of articles out there, just do a Google search on "true cost of lethal injection" or something like that. There was a big deal about it a couple years ago.

Ohhhhh..... the legal system is the actual issue regarding the cost. Now it makes sense.

Rather than broadening the meaning of mental illness, why don't we call this what it is. Premeditated murder. And if we continue to broaden this idea of mental illness, where does it stop? Are we now able to explain why a man or woman rushes into a home to rob a family of its possessions by claiming mental illness?

The problem is that we have incorporated things like personality disorder and transitory conditions, like some cases of ADHD, as enduring, chronic mental disorders. This only becomes promulgated by taking some of those conditions and "rewarding" them with extensive disability incomes. And as long as the judicial system sometimes provides allowances for the same in certain cases....it always gives the defendant, and accompanying representation, hope to use the mentally incompetent argument as protection.

[Redacted01]

Re: What is wrong with our society?

I say we go with the less subtle approach.

If they rape someone, cut off their junk.

If they kill someone, cut off their hands.

What if I kill someone with a car and my hands are off the wheel and it's in neutral? Do I just lose my car?

[shugknight]

Re: What is wrong with our society?

What if I kill someone with a car and my hands are off the wheel and it's in neutral? Do I just lose my car?

We can negotiate, but I say cut off 1 arm and 1 foot. Maybe you're right foot.

[Brandon13]

The problem is that we have incorporated things like personality disorder and transitory conditions, like some cases of ADHD, as enduring, chronic mental disorders. This only becomes promulgated by taking some of those conditions and "rewarding" them with extensive disability incomes. And as long as the judicial system sometimes provides allowances for the same in certain cases....it always gives the defendant, and accompanying representation, hope to use the mentally incompetent argument as protection.

Yet the insanity defense is rarely used and when it is, it is only successful around a quarter of the time:

According to an eight-state study, the insanity defense is used in less than 1% of all court cases and, when used, has only a 26% success rate.[3] Of those cases that were successful, 90% of the defendants had been previously diagnosed with mental illness.[3]

http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Insan...nse#section_12

I'm not saying the system cannot be improved, but there are not many individuals out there who have robbed a bank or committing a murder and successful pleaded insanity.

[RAZRr1275]

Re: What is wrong with our society?

I say we go with the less subtle approach.

If they rape someone, cut off their junk.

If they kill someone, cut off their hands.

That's pretty archaic. Why do you think that system makes anything better?

I wasn't constructing anything. This boy is depraved. He did something entirely evil and made it clear with his actions in court that he was completely aware and conscious of what he did. He wrote on his shirt, "killer." He told the victims' families that he now masturbates over the memories of what he did.

Rather than broadening the meaning of mental illness, why don't we call this what it is. Premeditated murder. And if we continue to broaden this idea of mental illness, where does it stop? Are we now able to explain why a man or woman rushes into a home to rob a family of its possessions by claiming mental illness?

As for your first question see my post here http://www.operationsports.com/forum...post2044830098 as far as your claims about the nature of being in control and premeditated.

Premeditated murder isn't something simple. A military operation is premeditated murder - way more premeditated than what any killer thinks of - do you want to criminalize that? Killing a killer is premeditated murder - you don't want that to be illegal do you? Those two words mean functionally nothing. Ehhh yeah - there's a condition called Kleptomania that causes people to have an irrepressible urge to steal things that surprise surprise, like most disorders come down to a combo of environment and chemical processes in one's brain that are impossible to control. Of course every thief doesn't have that disorder but its a possible explanation.

The OPs original question is too broad, and really I could write a paper on this topic.

First I want to say, I agree that things like this have been happening for a long time, it's just now with social media and 24 hour news reporting, and the news outlets trying to pump fear through the airwaves as often as possible, we hear about it all immediately now.

And I think this topic was kind of touched on in an earlier thread, but I really think it has to do with the lack of parenting, and the way children are coddled in every sense of the word. There are obviously other factors in it as well, so I don't mean to simplify it to that extent but I think this is where it derives from.

Parents that aren't ready to take care of another human being, letting these kids grow up by using video games and television as a baby sitter and not teaching them morals and the difference between right and wrong first hand. Also, the way everyone now has to be a winner, and everything has to be fair, that when they get into an environment that isn't that way, they can't handle it, because news flash, life ISN'T fair, and you don't always get everything that YOU want and you're not always the best.

Obviously, there are always going to be the cases where someone is genuinely mentally ill. It happens unfortunately, and with something like that, it's unavoidable but all I have to say, is we all need to be better. Better parents, better teachers, better examples for kids, and better at preparing them for the harsh world they will enter on their own some day.

I don't really think coddling has anything to do with it. It's still wholly irrational to have a chain of logic that goes "I didn't get what I want today therefore I'm going to find a gun, go to a school and shoot some people". I'd say its some sort of mental illness that does that. Same applies with videogames etc. I'd argue that the writing was on the wall for the type who shoots people for no reason to do so long before they touched a controller or knew the first thing about morals. Even if you're right that that thing plays a factor there's still a genetic predisposition towards some sort of psychosis that exists before knowledge of videogames or parents that allows those things to serve as a trigger for psychosis and in that case no parent telling a kid that videogames weren't real or lack of coddling would've stopped it. They'd play a videogame, bet told that they weren't real over and over again and still be convinced that it was reality regardless due to their predisposition if it was strong enough. Then it becomes a question of identifying that predisposition before it makes itself apparent which is pretty much impossible at this point.

[JODYE]

Re: What is wrong with our society?

I'm not saying that is the direct chain of events, but that is where it begins. If the most basic principals of right and wrong aren't established by a parent or someone the child respects at a young age, and practiced, then it's a downhill spiral from there.

That's not being irrational, that's parenting 101.

Take a look at this kid TJ Lane. Had an abusive child hood and his father was put in jail for attempted murder/drug abuse etc. Obviously not coddling in this example, but at 8 years old, he was seeing this activity and was not being raised the right way. You can say things all you want, but if you see people say one thing, then see another, are you really going to listen or take it seriously?

So no it's not irrational to believe that it starts with parenting.

I mentioned that in some minute cases, the child is really just mentally ill, which is something that can't be combated by just being a good parent, and is inevitable at some point that they will act out.

[RAZRr1275]

Re: What is wrong with our society?

I'm not saying that is the direct chain of events, but that is where it begins. If the most basic principals of right and wrong aren't established by a parent or someone the child respects at a young age, and practiced, then it's a downhill spiral from there.

That's not being irrational, that's parenting 101.

Take a look at this kid TJ Lane. Had an abusive child hood and his father was put in jail for attempted murder/drug abuse etc. Obviously not coddling in this example, but at 8 years old, he was seeing this activity and was not being raised the right way. You can say things all you want, but if you see people say one thing, then see another, are you really going to listen or take it seriously?

So no it's not irrational to believe that it starts with parenting.

I mentioned that in some minute cases, the child is really just mentally ill, which is something that can't be combated by just being a good parent, and is inevitable at some point that they will act out.

I don't necessarily think that's where it starts as I think some people are predisposed towards certain actions. I agree with you to an extent that it could function as a catalyst in some cases but in others its largely irrelevant as in some cases a person could turn out that way regardless of how they were raised.

I'm not saying your conclusion is irrational. I'm saying that the logic chain that your conclusion being true would entail which is "I think my life sucks therefore killing is okay" is an irrational conclusion for any individual to come to and as a result that there is probably some sort of mental illness that when combined with environmental stimuli results in an action such as murder.