Riding PES rainbow (exploring and describing the ATTACK/DEFENSE levels).

**papinho81** · 04-01-2017, 03:00 AM

Re: Riding PES rainbow (exploring and describing the ATTACK/DEFENSE levels).

Originally posted by kilay

I Wanna try to tweaks arsenal, is one of the few team that don't switch on red after '65

I am curious to hear about your findings kilay.

**kilay** · 04-01-2017, 12:04 PM

Re: Riding PES rainbow (exploring and describing the ATTACK/DEFENSE levels).

Originally posted by papinho81

On the continuity of the test I did with Monaco, I tried G/O for Barca but it was not working well. FBs took too much time to join the attack as did the CM leading to a Barca without tooth and depth in their play. I then switched them to O/O and it was wayyyyyyy better. You can have a look at it on my archived video on twitch: https://www.twitch.tv/videos/131794786
Barca on O/O starts around 1:40:00.

try O/G i think is appropriate

**papinho81** · 04-02-2017, 11:18 AM

Re: Riding PES rainbow (exploring and describing the ATTACK/DEFENSE levels).

I am streaming a bit with the last patch:

Twitch

https://www.twitch.tv/papinho811

Twitch is the world's leading video platform and community for gamers.

**papinho81** · 04-03-2017, 04:57 AM

Re: Riding PES rainbow (exploring and describing the ATTACK/DEFENSE levels).

Do you guys think the last patch has changed anything in regards to ATT/DEF levels?

I played Barca on O/O yesterday with Betis (First game of La Liga) and they literally raped me. Not so much in terms of possession (I think it was 50-50) but in terms of chance created and converted (lost 7-0 ouch!).

**Matt10** · 04-03-2017, 10:26 AM

Re: Riding PES rainbow (exploring and describing the ATTACK/DEFENSE levels).

Originally posted by papinho81

Do you guys think the last patch has changed anything in regards to ATT/DEF levels?

I played Barca on O/O yesterday with Betis (First game of La Liga) and they literally raped me. Not so much in terms of possession (I think it was 50-50) but in terms of chance created and converted (lost 7-0 ouch!).

I feel like they have. I'm just finding it more chaotic in terms of CPU attack. It's a bit exhausting to be perfectly honest. Regardless of ATT/DEF, there is no patience, no sense of calm whatsoever.

**papinho81** · 04-03-2017, 11:30 AM

Re: Riding PES rainbow (exploring and describing the ATTACK/DEFENSE levels).

Originally posted by Matt10

I feel like they have. I'm just finding it more chaotic in terms of CPU attack. It's a bit exhausting to be perfectly honest. Regardless of ATT/DEF, there is no patience, no sense of calm whatsoever.

I agree, with ~10 games after the patch it reminds me a lot where the game was after the DP2 that BL8001 heavily criticized at that time. The cpu is using a lot of super lethal "closed eyes" through ball no matter the team you are playing against they can be supra dangerous at any time. Also it is like the pitch length as increased, the distance between the two defensive lines, the time you have on the ball when you are not in the last third. I am kind of regretting the game play before the patch at least there was more variety in the way the cpu was attacking. At the time of the DP2 konami released a message in the log file, something relative to team tactics. Installing the Live update after that brung back the game to more enjoyable levels for me.

As a side note, I noticed that while playing league games (Premier League) under dogs were always staring the game on G/G they only switched to their original default level if I scored. It happened when I played with city against West Ham and when I played with Arsenal against Bournemouth and Burnley but not against ManU. I checked after that their default level on exhibition game and it was for all as I was expecting, O/B.

Edit:
I think the through balls are due to defensive ADD, many time the ST is free of marking with sometime 5+ meters free. I will upload video showing it tomorrow.
Also the games I played today and yesterday felt like a pace fest.

BL8001 posted two videos in the impression thread at the time of the DP2. You can have a look if you want to compare (Post #568).

**kilay** · 04-03-2017, 02:10 PM

Re: Riding PES rainbow (exploring and describing the ATTACK/DEFENSE levels).

Originally posted by papinho81

I agree, with ~10 games after the patch it reminds me a lot where the game was after the DP2 that BL8001 heavily criticized at that time. The cpu is using a lot of super lethal "closed eyes" through ball no matter the team you are playing against they can be supra dangerous at any time. Also it is like the pitch length as increased, the distance between the two defensive lines, the time you have on the ball when you are not in the last third. I am kind of regretting the game play before the patch at least there was more variety in the way the cpu was attacking. At the time of the DP2 konami released a message in the log file, something relative to team tactics. Installing the Live update after that brung back the game to more enjoyable levels for me.

As a side note, I noticed that while playing league games (Premier League) under dogs were always staring the game on G/G they only switched to their original default level if I scored. It happened when I played with city against West Ham and when I played with Arsenal against Bournemouth and Burnley but not against ManU. I checked after that their default level on exhibition game and it was for all as I was expecting, O/B.

Edit:
I think the through balls are due to defensive ADD, many time the ST is free of marking with sometime 5+ meters free. I will upload video showing it tomorrow.
Also the games I played today and yesterday felt like a pace fest.

BL8001 posted two videos in the impression thread at the time of the DP2. You can have a look if you want to compare (Post #568).

Just to know, try to check these teams, should have different behavior

http://www.operationsports.com/forum...6&postcount=55

**Cavani161** · 04-03-2017, 11:02 PM

Re: Riding PES rainbow (exploring and describing the ATTACK/DEFENSE levels).

I've redone the tactics of teams and I've put auto change attack/defense level to On for teams and I don't know if it's me...but I feel like I've noticed a difference in terms of how teams are playing. I was watching Barcelona vs Juventus and Barcelona was playing their usual game, then as they went up in the score they really sat back and kept the ball away from Juventus and not putting many players forward.

**papinho81** · 04-04-2017, 03:39 AM

Re: Riding PES rainbow (exploring and describing the ATTACK/DEFENSE levels).

Originally posted by kilay

Just to know, try to check these teams, should have different behavior

http://www.operationsports.com/forum...6&postcount=55

What do you mean killay? Are you testing those different teams or do you suggest me to do so?
What do you mean about behavior? The way their ATT/DEF level evolve during the game?

**papinho81** · 04-04-2017, 03:53 AM

Re: Riding PES rainbow (exploring and describing the ATTACK/DEFENSE levels).

Originally posted by Cavani161

I've redone the tactics of teams and I've put auto change attack/defense level to On for teams and I don't know if it's me...but I feel like I've noticed a difference in terms of how teams are playing. I was watching Barcelona vs Juventus and Barcelona was playing their usual game, then as they went up in the score they really sat back and kept the ball away from Juventus and not putting many players forward.

I might be wrong but I think the auto change for ATT/DEF only concerns the user as the CPU has always changed its level instantaneously when getting or loosing the ball. So it sounds a bit weird to me that only changing this user "comfort" setting has dramatically changed the way teams are playing. Could it be that you tried it post patch and the difference you describe is the difference between pre and post patch?

Also concerning the Barca attitude, I have also seen that as soon as they get a 3 goal advantage (can be at the start of the second half if they get those goals before) they switch to a very deep B/B level. Even if it kind of make sense to switch into a more defensive attitude once you have done the break it is really but really not the Barca philosophy. They would concede two goals if they can score 4 or 5 more rather than sitting deep and waiting the end of the game.

Edit: I have to concede that despite they switch to B/B they relentlessly try scoring more goals.

**papinho81** · 04-04-2017, 11:44 AM

Re: Riding PES rainbow (exploring and describing the ATTACK/DEFENSE levels).

Two short video illustrating some of the issue I am having post patch. Read the description of the videos for the details.

Spoiler

For me the biggest issue now is the poor decision making made by the user AI players and the cpu ones when it comes to mark a man or go for the ball. Too often you see players with acres of space because of that. It is even worst when one man of the back line decide for some reason to follow a man deep in the defense at the cost of the defensive shape (even using the auto offside trap). Before patch I was pissed of about DMF doing that but they stayed in the vicinity of the back four. Now FB or CB can drop acres away from the defensive line. If it happened from time to time I would be OK with that but it happens repeatedly. I feel I just can't trust my defense positioning.

**kilay** · 04-04-2017, 07:53 PM

Re: Riding PES rainbow (exploring and describing the ATTACK/DEFENSE levels).

Originally posted by papinho81

What do you mean killay? Are you testing those different teams or do you suggest me to do so?
What do you mean about behavior? The way their ATT/DEF level evolve during the game?

Yep, in my opinion the att/def level is different for any of these teams, for example(in my OF) i've Arsenal and Man Utd have O/B behavior but their switches following the result are different. Arsenal never push.up on the red slider (doesn't matter the result), Man Utd on a draw start with red at '65.
I'm pretty sure that the default tacts of these team have different tweaks about changing strategy, so is just an idea to test and have more choice to customize our tacts.

**kilay** · 04-05-2017, 02:26 AM

Re: Riding PES rainbow (exploring and describing the ATTACK/DEFENSE levels).

Anyway rivalries and different ranking should affect also those behaviors , during my maps of the tactics i've seen a lot of tweaks, but the save/load tricks don't bring also that behaviors. SO probably are written only on the exe... Damn KONAMI.. anyway if anyone find any team that in single knockout match don't switch on red after '65 if the result is a draw please tell me...
I'm desperately at research of something that can remove this ****ty red slide

**papinho81** · 04-05-2017, 03:53 AM

Re: Riding PES rainbow (exploring and describing the ATTACK/DEFENSE levels).

Originally posted by kilay

Anyway rivalries and different ranking should affect also those behaviors , during my maps of the tactics i've seen a lot of tweaks, but the save/load tricks don't bring also that behaviors. SO probably are written only on the exe... Damn KONAMI.. anyway if anyone find any team that in single knockout match don't switch on red after '65 if the result is a draw please tell me...
I'm desperately at research of something that can remove this ****ty red slide

Yep, rivaleries for sure affect the ATT/DEF level (I have seen with Dino tool that there is 3 different types of rivaleries). Teams automatically switch to O/O during rival games.

I agree the evolution of the ATT/DEF level during the game can not be transferred from one team to another with the save/load trick. Same thing with the advanced tactic.

**papinho81** · 04-16-2017, 07:11 AM

Re: Riding PES rainbow (exploring and describing the ATTACK/DEFENSE levels).

We didn’t ride much, did we?

The patches kind of stopped our dynamic. Now I guess the patch has been gutted, at least I gutted it. I think overall it improved the gameplay particularly inside and around the penalty area but I am not going to extend about it, as it is not the topic of the thread and I would prefer we move on and make progress in regard to the issues/features addressed by the thread.

Here are some observations from my testing during the past two weeks or so.

Do the ATT and DEF levels can be treated independently?
I think the answer is no. A team that is O on ATT do not attack the same way whether it is B, G or O in DEF. The higher the DEF level is, the more intense (to use Matt word) the attack will be and vice versa. I think this is because the ATT/DEF level dictates the number of players involved (as mentioned by klashman in is pes 2015 tutorial) in attacking or defensive phases. So if players are not asked to retreat deep in defence (like when on B on DEF) they take advantage of their higher defensive position to get involved more quickly into offensive phases but also a larger number of player gets involved in the attack.

How they affect players positioning?
Pretty much everything is on klashman tutorial in the sections “numbers in attack/numbers in defense” and it is quite spot on despite the tutorial have been made for PES 2015 (http://klashman69.blogspot.ch/2015/0...-tutorial.html). I will not repeat what he already said I will just add, based on the previous point that the positions in ATT very likely influences positions in DEF.

How they affect players aggressiveness?
In defensive phase I think the DEF level dictate at what height on the pitch the team should start pressing aggressively instead of whether they defend aggressively or not. On O on DEF attackers and offensive/side midfielders will stay high in the opposition half to prevent easy build up from the back. Sometime they will also press the FBs which is very nice to see. Of course it also depends on other setting such as the height of the D line and the defensive attitude, AGG/CONS and ALL OUT/FRONT L PRESS but if you want to get a high pressing team (gegenpress) you can use the combo DEF on O, AGG and FRONT L PRESS.

In the offensive phase I am not sure if the ATT level influence how aggressive is the team when it comes to move up the ball. More players get involved that is for sure but do they tend to take more risk with the ball at cost of loosing possession is an open question for me. I checked pass completion and possession stats as possible metrics to give me clue about that. I didn’t see a decrease in both stats when moving up the ATT level as one could have expected if higher ATT level was dictating teams to take more risks but pretty much the opposite (higher stats with ATT on O and even higher with increasing DEF level).

Here is how I will use the ATT/DEF level when editing my tactics:

O/O: Very attacking minded team that spend a lot of time in the opposition third (probably using the Action zone stat from whoscore to help my decision, cut off to be decided) and that press their opponent (helping my decisions with the aggressiveness stats I derived from whoscored (see Royce and my tactic thread second post)).
So it would suit well team such as City, Liverpool, Barca, Real, Bayern, Inter, …

O/G: Offensive teams less into high pressing.
Example: Fiorentina, Napoli, Palace, Chesea?

G/O: Less offensive team but that uses a high press approach of the game.
Example: Leipzig, Leverkusen, Lyon, Lazio, PSG, …

G/G: For teams that have a more balanced approach of the game, likely the majority of teams
Example: Juventus, Milan AC, Schalke, …

G/B: For teams that spend some time in the opposition third but that really not into pressing
Example: West Ham, Watford, Burnley, Wolfsburg…

B/G: For teams that do not spend much time in the opposition third but that do not endure to much pressure in their last third.
Example: Espanyol (could almost be B/O!), Celta Vigo (a clear B/O), Bologna, Middlesbrough?, …

B/B: Very defensively minded teams.
Example: Udinese, West Brom, …

I hope this will be helpful.

Let me know what you think, if you have any suggestions to refine this scheme, more in depth observations to share or even if you disagree.

Riding PES rainbow (exploring and describing the ATTACK/DEFENSE levels).

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