Too Much Negativity.

[Ram209]

Quote: Originally Posted by HMcCoy

Wrong. The NFL "made it clear" once they realized that the NFLPA was on the verge of securing what was at the time rumored to be a billion dollar deal with Electronic Arts, after years of unsuccessful overtures to the league itself. This was widely speculated, and the negotiations were confirmed in several sports industry trade mags in April 04. Once the NFL realized that the players would make insane money on the deal, and they would get nothing aout of an NFL licensed non-EA game without real players, they re-thought their no exclusivity stance. Gotta do yor homework before you say how "ignorant" we are, 'kay? Dont be naive, friend. VC was able to implement certain features 2 years ago on old tech from the ground up with 1 year dev time!!!! ONE!!! 2k3 was a mess, IMO...the only year in the current gen that me and my buddys preferred Madden over 2K. Then, in the space of ONE YEAR, they add realistic 2-man LINKABLE blocking interactions and an unmatched tackling system, also linkable. Then, for 2K5 they re-wrote the graphics library from the ground up, again, in ONE YEAR. Late dev kits?...LOL. Don't want to hear it. Development doesn't BEGIN with the dev kits! The code and engine development begins years in advance on their own workstations. If they PLANNED to remove suction blocking, suction blocking would be gone. I wasn't at the meetings..didn't need to be. Thats common sense. Wow, thats cliche. The old "how do you know what really goes on?" argument is weak. WEAK. There's a distinct difference between an error and an omission. 2K certainly had flaws, the frustrating DB AI being one for sure. HOWEVA, 2k innovated realistic physics, interactions, and presentation aspects that Madden didn't even ATTEMPT!!!! You can't name one meat and potato football mechanic that didn't obliterate Tiburons efforts. 3 Jukes? Try 8 Jukes that can be buffered and linked. Please. If Madden 360 had gang tackling that looked a little off, Id still be ecstatic. Everyone here is giving EA flack for being behind, not for failing to be perfect. There is a distinct difference. Wow. Thats cliche. The old "even if it were perfect, youd hate it" argument is weak. WEAK. I've said it a million times. EVERY SINGLE 2K FAN WAS AT SOME POINT A MADDEN FANATIC. Think about that. Thanks for giving us all your flawless perspective...Bwaaaahaaahaaa Wrong. Our love for NFL football is forcing us to by this game...This ONE gotdamnned NFL football game. The fact that we've been enjoying videio game football for 16 years now is forcing us to buy this game. The fact that our boys all hang out and play football while smoking/drinking on the weekends is forcing us to buy this game. The fact that we love tracking our video game stats as much as the real life stats is forcing us to buy this game...starting to get the picture? Video football is part of out LIFESTYLE, friend. The "well just don't buy it" plea is just plain tired. Please stop. Please. Uhhh no ones offended "Flamehead"...these wars have been waging for years, we're all verterans here. We are going to buy Madden, we are for the most part going to enjoy Madden...But we're also going to call out Madden on its shortcomings, and with glee..because EA decided that we should only get to play their game. Anyway, we're not really ignorant, bro... welcome to our little club!

NEW POST OF THE YEAR

[Flamehead]

"HMcCoy",

Bravo, well done! Welcome to 5 hours ago. And round and round we go...

1) In regard to your explanation regarding the NFL licensing rights, look at your subject/verbs in your paragraph:

a) The NFL "made it clear"
b) once they (the NFL) realized...
c) the (the NFL) rethought their no exclusivity stance...

Again, EA doesn't control the NFL. The NFL wasn't strong armed or forced to do any of this. They chose to. And since you claim to have the inside scoop on this, please provide the sources for your homework with links if possible. You may very well be right, but I'd like to see YOUR homework, "kay"?

2) In regard to the development kits: re-read my post. I never said development begins with the development kits. I simply said we don't know how them receiving it late impacted them. It may have, it may not. But again, you seem to have the inside scoop. I gather you work for EA? If so, you seem to have a lot of information about VC's development kits. Funny, you appear to be an expert on these things, but you don't mention EA at all in this particular paragraph. Tell me about EA. Why didn't they do these things you reference? And what is the proof? I'd like to see the minutes from the meetings please. You have such a wealth of knowledge I'm sure you must work for them.

But you can't really speak for them. So my argument is weak because you have no way of doing so? Right... Tell you what, why don't you show us proof of your employment with them so we know you have proof on how much they're choosing to screw you, "kay"?

3) Comparing Madden vs. NFL 2Kx: There's no doubt VC did some good things. Madden also did some good things. Both games had flaws. Oh, but that's right, with VC it was error, but EA those evil stinking bastards, it was ommission!! They were out to screw us! I'm sure EA was shaking that you were on to their purposeful ommissions. I can hear them them now "oh woe is us (hand to forehead), HMcCoy is on to us, whatever shall we do?"

*yawn*

4) The "old 'even if it were perfect, everyone would complain about it' argument": Once again, because you have no response to this, the best you can come up with is "it's a cliche and it's weak"? People respond like that when they have no argument. Think about that. Oh, and I'd like to see the official stats on the "everyone one who liked VC was once a Madden fanatic" please. I don't doubt you, but I'd like to see the numbers and source please.

BTW, my basis for this argument was that no matter what one does, they don't please everyone all the time, and other people are just miserable no matter what. Factor these two together and, well, you're smart enough to get the picture.

5) The "flawless perspective": Again, I don't think you read my post very well. I never claimed to have a "flawless" perspective, though to your credit, you appeared to have edited your post to remove that. I only encouraged a "balanced" one. IMHO, EA is not as bad or good as some of you claim....

Bwaaaahaaahaaa....

6) Your "love for NFL football is forcing you to by this game"? Your lifestyle is "forcing" to buy the game? The fact that "You've been enjoying video game football for 16 years now is forcing us to buy this game"? LOL! This IS post of the year! I've been laughing so hard I've got tears in my eyes. "Please stop".

7) I'm glad no one is offended, "HMcCoy". You are correct, these wars have been going on for quite some time, and in a way, your comment on this proves something I've long since suspected: this Madden 360 hasn't changed anyones minds about EA. It's only served to confirm what everyone has chosen to believe. Everyone sees it through their own prism. More power to ya.

And since you mention MM, I did see a post there recently that I thought was a great idea: A poster there (tongue-in-cheek I imagine) suggested everyone who's put out with EA file a complaint with the FTC.

http://www.ftc.gov/

How about it? Are all those who complain nonstop (yet will still buy the game--will someone please explain this logic to me? Oh that's right, you're "forced" to) willing to ante up and file your complaints? Let's show 'em that we as the consumer aren't going to take it anymore! Now is the time to rise up and make our voices heard!

Like I said, "HMcCoy", more power to ya. These threads can go on and on and on. You've got your beliefs, I have mine. Try to relax and and have fun.

"kay"?

[HMcCoy]

Quote: Originally Posted by Flamehead

"HMcCoy", Bravo, well done! Welcome to 5 hours ago. And round and round we go... 1) In regard to your explanation regarding the NFL licensing rights, look at your subject/verbs in your paragraph: a) The NFL "made it clear" b) once they (the NFL) realized... c) the (the NFL) rethought their no exclusivity stance... Again, EA doesn't control the NFL. The NFL wasn't strong armed or forced to do any of this. They chose to. And since you claim to have the inside scoop on this, please provide the sources for your homework with links if possible. You may very well be right, but I'd like to see YOUR homework, "kay"? 2) In regard to the development kits: re-read my post. I never said development begins with the development kits. I simply said we don't know how them receiving it late impacted them. It may have, it may not. But again, you seem to have the inside scoop. I gather you work for EA? If so, you seem to have a lot of information about VC's development kits. Funny, you appear to be an expert on these things, but you don't mention EA at all in this particular paragraph. Tell me about EA. Why didn't they do these things you reference? And what is the proof? I'd like to see the minutes from the meetings please. You have such a wealth of knowledge I'm sure you must work for them. But you can't really speak for them. So my argument is weak because you have no way of doing so? Right... Tell you what, why don't you show us proof of your employment with them so we know you have proof on how much they're choosing to screw you, "kay"?

Niiiice. Well first off. I have no secret connects. Don't work for EA. Here is the story about the denial of the rumored deal with Players Inc. Which, BTW predates the actual deal by about 6 months...

"Players Inc. denies billion-dollar EA exclusivity deal"


If you think that these rumors popped up with absolutely no foundation, or that reputable industry mags like Sports Business Weekly just made this all up, and that the actual deal being solidified just months after the original story broke is just a wild coincidence, you are naive beyond belief, and I'm prolly wasting my time. It dosesn't take meeting attendance to see the chain of events.

Then, you speak of Tiburons development as if its a mystical process that us know-nothings shouldn't question. Like I have to actually work for EA to form an opinion? Thats almost laughable. Errr...this particular know-nothing can add 2+2, friend. If VC can program a certain feature into their game, within a relatively short ammount of time, I should have a reasonable expectation that Tiburon, with what should be an insane design budget for EA's flagship franchise justified by what is one of the most lucrative pieces of software in the entire entertainment industry..can also TAKE A SHOT at adding those same features.

Save the excuses, and please save the rhetoric that us simple non-industry folk should just accept that EA has made smart design decisions. Question: If accessability and and "wow" factor were the main focus of the development...fixing suction blocking wouldn't be high priority, would it? If the Madden faithful have accepted this for years, changing it wouldn't be #1 on the list, would it? Keeping the mechanics and contols familiar, and going hog wild on poly-counts and glitz would be a more sensible priority right? Of course. Problem for EA..there was another football game developer that for better or worse, put realism at the top of that list. Put making their product mirror reality in both form, and function their #1 goal. Now, you're correct, we may never know for sure what Tiburon's focus was when they started to put this puppy together...but their PRODUCT makes a strong statement on what the focus was. IS IT REALLY THAT DIFFICULT TO COMPREHEND?

You've gone to great lengths to attempt to discredit simple observations, in an attempt to justify problems that Stevie Wonder could see....Its not working. I don't have to work for EA to see that Mario running is present and accounted for. Nice try though..really. You make it sound goooood.

Quote: Originally Posted by Flamehead

3) Comparing Madden vs. NFL 2Kx: There's no doubt VC did some good things. Madden also did some good things. Both games had flaws. Oh, but that's right, with VC it was error, but EA those evil stinking bastards, it was ommission!! They were out to screw us! I'm sure EA was shaking that you were on to their purposeful ommissions. I can hear them them now "oh woe is us (hand to forehead), HMcCoy is on to us, whatever shall we do?" *yawn*

Again, trying to divert the subject. Blaming my "hate" for EA? LOL...no. I love Live..(or did, anyway), Lets get back on topic.

Is gang-tackling in the game? Nope. If Tiburon made gang-tackling a major priority, would it be in the game? Very likely. Sooooo if they didn't make it a focus, can't we say they left it out? Is it just me? Does not "omission" mean leaving something out? Is the Mario running still in? Eh, sure looks like it to me. If EA looked at their product and decided to make it a priority to remove that, would it be gone? Bet it would. Or maybe we're all supposed to believe that VC just had the very best programmers on the planet, and poor, poor EA just doesn't have the resources to keep up, right? Stop. If they wrote this from the ground up, certain faults should be eliminated. Hence I can surmise (see above) that Tiburon felt that those those fixes were not as important as others. And left them out.

Quote: Originally Posted by Flamehead

4) The "old 'even if it were perfect, everyone would complain about it' argument": Once again, because you have no response to this, the best you can come up with is "it's a cliche and it's weak"? People respond like that when they have no argument. Think about that. Oh, and I'd like to see the official stats on the "everyone one who liked VC was once a Madden fanatic" please. I don't doubt you, but I'd like to see the numbers and source please. BTW, my basis for this argument was that no matter what one does, they don't please everyone all the time, and other people are just miserable no matter what. Factor these two together and, well, you're smart enough to get the picture.

Stats? LOL, If someone says good morning, do you ask them to prove its morning..or make them show you statistics PROVING its a good morning? You starting to sound plain silly, man.

How about this. In 3 years I have read hundreds of threads on this site and others 'round the net titled "I used to be a Madden fan, now I love 2k" vs ZERO threads about "I'm a 2K fan who never ever played Madden and I've now played it and switched." Madden is an institution, and I'd guess that very few people, if any, even the noobiest noobie has ever gone to a store, purchased a new playstation, and said, Man, whats this madden game? Never heard of it..I'll take the mega popular 2K please!. Heres a useless stat for you, since you seem to be obsessed...95% of 2K players have played Madden extensively before they ever picked up a 2K game. 16 years, bro....16.

Quote: Originally Posted by Flamehead

5) The "flawless perspective": Again, I don't think you read my post very well. I never claimed to have a "flawless" perspective, though to your credit, you appeared to have edited your post to remove that. I only encouraged a "balanced" one. IMHO, EA is not as bad or good as some of you claim.... Bwaaaahaaahaaa....

Encourage a balanced perspective, by calling us ignorant. Err..great job?

Quote: Originally Posted by Flamehead

6) Your "love for NFL football is forcing you to by this game"? Your lifestyle is "forcing" to buy the game? The fact that "You've been enjoying video game football for 16 years now is forcing us to buy this game"? LOL! This IS post of the year! I've been laughing so hard I've got tears in my eyes. "Please stop".

Wow. A desire to play next gen football, reguardless of it's hiccups is that funny, huh? So funny that you were actually crying? Hmmmm. This is really getting sad. How 'bout we make a thread calling for opinions on this. I'd wager that there are tons of folks who have complained in this very thread, who like myself, are going to make the best of what Madden offers. But then again, I shouldn't say "tons" because I don't have any statiistical info on how much the posters here weigh...and I'm sure you'll want verification.

Quote: Originally Posted by Flamehead

7) I'm glad no one is offended, "HMcCoy". You are correct, these wars have been going on for quite some time, and in a way, your comment on this proves something I've long since suspected: this Madden 360 hasn't changed anyones minds about EA. It's only served to confirm what everyone has chosen to believe. Everyone sees it through their own prism. More power to ya.

OK I'll bite...What opinion of EA should have changed? And since you're HEAVILY into proof, prove what I think about EA.

Quote: Originally Posted by Flamehead

How about it? Are all those who complain nonstop (yet will still buy the game--will someone please explain this logic to me? Oh that's right, you're "forced" to) willing to ante up and file your complaints? Let's show 'em that we as the consumer aren't going to take it anymore! Now is the time to rise up and make our voices heard! Like I said, "HMcCoy", more power to ya. These threads can go on and on and on. You've got your beliefs, I have mine. Try to relax and and have fun. "kay"?

Wait, now I get it...we shouldn't complain right? Shoot, we should just close down the net all together, who wants...opinions (shudders). LOL. Bottom line, you've done a credible job playing the "voice of reason in a storm of negativity"... I've tried to play that part on occasion also. Like you said, some peoples opinioins are iron-clad, for and against. These things tend to go on far too long. I respect your views. Respect ours. The next time you stomp into a thread like we're all just spoiled little children, you should prolly take into account "WHAT" we're discussing and not bother with the "WHY" we're discussing it. This game has flaws we hoped would be fixed. Simple as that. OS don't play that.

Quote: Originally Posted by taylor34

What attempts? There are no documented attempts by any of the those companies as far as I know before the NFL one. On the other hand, EA had already previously gotten the NASCAR, FIFA, and PGA exclusive license before the NFL. Taylor34

I'm not going to research and pull 15 year old articles for you, but in the early 90's Sega was hard up for an exclusive NFL license. Sony made a documented request for it when Gameday was popular. EA tried to lock up the NBA on numerous occasions. It's what businesses do.

[MVICK]

Quote: Originally Posted by ObiWanJenkins

I'm not going to research and pull 15 year old articles for you, but in the early 90's Sega was hard up for an exclusive NFL license. Sony made a documented request for it when Gameday was popular. EA tried to lock up the NBA on numerous occasions. It's what businesses do.

It'd what businesses do but we dont have to like it. Businesses put arsenic in our drinking water too. The issue is the exclusivity deal, regardless of who started it benefits the NFL, benefits EA but poos on the consumer. US. Maddenites and 2kers should feel slighted by the whole thing. More options and competition is better than NO options...no competition.

Quote:

Wow. A desire to play next gen football, reguardless of it's hiccups is that funny, huh? So funny that you were actually crying? Hmmmm. This is really getting sad. How 'bout we make a thread calling for opinions on this. I'd wager that there are tons of folks who have complained in this very thread, who like myself, are going to make the best of what Madden offers. But then again, I shouldn't say "tons" because I don't have any statiistical info on how much the posters here weigh...and I'm sure you'll want verification.

I have to agree with Flamehead on that. If you're saying you HAVE to buy Madden, a game that you don't particularly like, it's very amusing. Sure, you can't run to ESPN NFL 2k anymore, but you can save your money.

I have one point of issue with your post. While I would agree with you that there are far more Madden players who love 2k, the sales of Madden have increased each year, even with the competition. That means more people are buying Madden every year. You're reading the opinions of less than one percent of the market and make general statements. Put yourself in EA's shoes. Are you going to cater to the wants of of a couple thousand people, or are you going to cater to the over 5 and a half million people that purchased your product last year? Sure my example is skewed, but you should know as well as I do that the sales numbers are what drives changes, not complaints on the internet.

Quote: Originally Posted by MVICK

It'd what businesses do but we dont have to like it. Businesses put arsenic in our drinking water too. The issue is the exclusivity deal, regardless of who started it benefits the NFL, benefits EA but poos on the consumer. US. Maddenites and 2kers should feel slighted by the whole thing. More options and competition is better than NO options...no competition.

But you guys are missing the big point. EA did not have the choice to say, "No, we want to keep the competitive market." They had the choice to make an NFL football game or not. Choosing to not costs them millions of dollars, much more than the millions the deal cost them. In the end, it's all about money. And this is true with every video game company in the world. The beloved Take Two would bend you over, just like people are saying EA did, if it gave them an advantage over EA.

[HMcCoy]

Quote: Originally Posted by ObiWanJenkins

I have to agree with Flamehead on that. If you're saying you HAVE to buy Madden, a game that you don't particularly like, it's very amusing. Sure, you can't run to ESPN NFL 2k anymore, but you can save your money. I have one point of issue with your post. While I would agree with you that there are far more Madden players who love 2k, the sales of Madden have increased each year, even with the competition. That means more people are buying Madden every year. You're reading the opinions of less than one percent of the market and make general statements. Put yourself in EA's shoes. Are you going to cater to the wants of of a couple thousand people, or are you going to cater to the over 5 and a half million people that purchased your product last year? Sure my example is skewed, but you should know as well as I do that the sales numbers are what drives changes, not complaints on the internet.

1. Where did I say I don't like Madden? I've said that My buddy likes the new Madden, nd I trust his opinion. I'm reserving judgment until I play it.

2. The growth is also enhanced by larger installed bases. You hit the nail on the head on one point... EA's offering has been behind in a few areas, but hey, so many people buy it why change? As a fan of the series, don't you want more? Want better? Man, such low expectations...