Moostache Hands-On Impressions (MaddenWars)

[swanlee]

Quote: Originally Posted by Moostache

I do not want to pile on or make it seem like I am downplaying your concerns at all, but as far as I recall, there has been no version of "next-gen" football with ANY selectable camera views. I agree these things WERE on the PS2/XB versions of the game, but I have owned every one on XB360 and PS3 and have never seen a user-defined, playable camera option. There has been a great deal of confusion and anger in the community about WHY exactly many of the features we saw in the last-gen games either never translated to the current-gen or simply took years to get them back into the games. There will never be a single answer to that which makes it all better though. I know that my personal crusade "issue" has been the exclusion of online play options and choices (like weather effects, stadiums, uniforms, etc.) ... those are still MIA as well, but I do feel Madden NFL 2009 has made a lot of progress in other areas though. I think to over generalize the lack of progress, or to fail to acknowledge when progress IS made is a disservice to all. Some people don't care any more about my issues with the game tahn they do with your issues - to them EA may have just hit a grand slam in the things that have been fixed. At any rate, while I sympathize that your concerns have not been addressed; I would strongly consider finding a better way to get that information across without alienating those who actually COULD make it happen in the future....

Your right about the camera options not being in any next gen version. I went back and played 2007 about half an hour ago and remembered they were not there either.

I now remember why 2007 was playable to me. 2006 on the 360 had a nasty bug where if you zoomed out pre snap to view your WR's the camera stayed zoomed out the entire play. That really ticked me off and i was glad they fixed it in 2007.

What ticked me off about 2008 was they moved the camera back further on the default view I assume to achieve the 60 FPS they were hyping.

I'm in no way saying Madden has not made progress year to year, it just seems they make progress on new gimmick features while neglecting something as rudimentary as Adjustable camera angles.

They need to nail down the basic features that EVERY sports game should have before they tinker with new features.

Adjustable and Multiple Pre Set Camera angles in a sports game is about as basic as you can get and it effects every aspect of the game.

[IStillDoWhatIDo]

Quote: Originally Posted by swanlee

How is the default Camera view and camera view while playing? I'm furious that they again left out user adjustable camera's and freaking hate last years default and only view which was to far away from the action to to over head for my liking. Has anyone pulled any of the devs aside and told them that User adjustable camera angles are a BIG deal and being stuck in what is essentially blimp mode is no fun.

good point

[Klocker]

Quote: Originally Posted by swanlee

Your right about the camera options not being in any next gen version. I went back and played 2007 about half an hour ago and remembered they were not there either. I now remember why 2007 was playable to me. 2006 on the 360 had a nasty bug where if you zoomed out pre snap to view your WR's the camera stayed zoomed out the entire play. That really ticked me off and i was glad they fixed it in 2007. What ticked me off about 2008 was they moved the camera back further on the default view I assume to achieve the 60 FPS they were hyping. I'm in no way saying Madden has not made progress year to year, it just seems they make progress on new gimmick features while neglecting something as rudimentary as Adjustable camera angles. They need to nail down the basic features that EVERY sports game should have before they tinker with new features. Adjustable and Multiple Pre Set Camera angles in a sports game is about as basic as you can get and it effects every aspect of the game.

while I absolutely agree ... I hate the default camera in every sports game ever made except Inside Drive.

My favorite cameras are Drive, Floor and Player Lock from NBA 2k. Not everyone wants to play that close but I do and have ever since NCAA Basketball on the SNES with Mode 7 rotational floor camera.

Now with that said... there is no reason for anyone to be furious over this as it is not an omission of the Devs.... it is due to performance issues alone. having one camera allows them to tweak the graphics to the best possible way because there is a set view in which the graphics are rendered. We need to wait for NEXT Gen for hardware capable of the graphic fidelity shown in 09 AND the user adjustable cameras.

Obviously NBA 2k is tweaked to run pretty damed well in any of the 15 or so camera views (awesome) but nobody is mistaking the rendering graphics in that game for anything near what Madden is doing on the field.

[BezO]

Quote: Originally Posted by Klocker

Obviously NBA 2k is tweaked to run pretty damed well in any of the 15 or so camera views (awesome) but nobody is mistaking the rendering graphics in that game for anything near what Madden is doing on the field.

I'd take NBA 2K graphics in exchange for custom camera if EA also had the animations to match 2K.

[spankdatazz22]

Quote: Originally Posted by Klocker

Now with that said... there is no reason for anyone to be furious over this as it is not an omission of the Devs.... it is due to performance issues alone. having one camera allows them to tweak the graphics to the best possible way because there is a set view in which the graphics are rendered. We need to wait for NEXT Gen for hardware capable of the graphic fidelity shown in 09 AND the user adjustable cameras. Obviously NBA 2k is tweaked to run pretty damed well in any of the 15 or so camera views (awesome) but nobody is mistaking the rendering graphics in that game for anything near what Madden is doing on the field.

Not sure that I agree with that; particularly the last paragraph. I think NBA2K8 is totally underrated for what it has going on realtime and can render from any of umpteen-different cameras. If you're just talking graphic fidelity/sharpness that's one thing. But if by graphics you include the animations, the peripheral action going on (in NBA2K8 - courtside bench, referees, coaches, courtside photographers [all interactive btw], crowds appear to be rendered individually [I think they have 64 different crowd actions going on at any given time] plus individuals walking the ailses, etc. I think there's a lot more going on in NBA2K8 than Madden has on the field. Or even if you include the sidelines and crowds. At least it would seem so to me; obviously I'm not a programmer.

Either way it's not like all the 2K8 camera options perform at optimum level. But they do mostly work well. Still don't see how there's any excuse Madden doesn't have at least a few more camera options four years into next gen. The sidelines aren't interactive (or necessarily active) and the crowd animation is pretty much consistent; the only constant variant is the players on the field

[Klocker]

11 on 11 with 55,000 fans and outdoor lighting and field degradation and weather and pretty sweet image quality and yes, a lot of animations and AI going on is more than an indoor NBA game needs to do.

I love NBA 2k and it is leaps and bounds over any other NBA game in terms of gameplay but it does not RENDER what Madden needs to render.

not saying we won't see user cameras this gen as now that they have the engine running on both systems at 60fps they can focus on optimizing different views.

I personally think we would have them on 360 if PS3 was not behind by a year (and more difficult to program for with less available RAM)

[Postman17]

I can understand this guy point. Having no option sucks for differenrt views. However, I liked the default camera from 06 to 08. I even liked 08 more than the previous two. I like change as long as you keep what you started the same.

[spankdatazz22]

Quote: Originally Posted by Klocker

11 on 11 with 55,000 fans and outdoor lighting and field degradation and weather and pretty sweet image quality and yes, a lot of animations and AI going on is more than an indoor NBA game needs to do. I love NBA 2k and it is leaps and bounds over any other NBA game in terms of gameplay but it does not RENDER what Madden needs to render. not saying we won't see user cameras this gen as now that they have the engine running on both systems at 60fps they can focus on optimizing different views. I personally think we would have them on 360 if PS3 was not behind by a year (and more difficult to program for with less available RAM)

Imo it's issues like this where the lack of competition will hurt sports games going forward because we really won't know what's devs are capable of. I still say I don't see how they still lack at least a few additional camera options - especially four years in. But I also say I don't see how the QB animations could be so poor four years in, where they don't seem to be as bothersome to other people.

Imo EA/2K took different approaches in how their football and basketball games were developed so it's hard to compare the two. One, we seem to be talking NBA2K8 versus Madden '09. Also, EA seems to have put more effort into rendering the 22 players on the field and the coaches and not much else where 2K seems to have taken a more even approach to rendering everything within view. For example there's a stark contrast to coaches in Madden versus the players on the bench/sidelines. This is the first year EA's detailing the sidelines more though so it's hard to say if that will continue. In NBA2K8 there isn't that stark contrast between players and coaches, or even the cheerleaders, the crowds, etc. And it's not like Madden's rendering 55,000 individual fans anymore than 2K is rendering 25,000 individual fans - but I think it's safe to say the NBA2K8 crowds are far more diverse in what they're doing at any given time during a game than they are at any given time during a game in Madden.

It comes down to personal preference on the approach I guess. When I look at Madden, it doesn't seem quite like you're in a 55k stadium because the 22 players on the field are so much more defined than their surroundings - it makes things seem hollow and takes away from the immersiveness some. It's part of the reason people want refs in the game - it adds an immersive quality to the game; makes it feel more like you're there. I think that same effect occurs in NBA Live, where the players and coaches are far more detailed than their surroundings. If you only focus on the player models themselves that's one thing, but to me it seems to take an immersive quality away from the game when there isn't much peripheral action going on.