Could Madden Improve with Natural Motion Tackling?

[excaliber]

Quote: Originally Posted by Nza

By the way Ian has talked, I have my doubts Madden has enough available resources on the consoles to utilize heavy physics like this anyway. I know Ian stated memory is the bottleneck right now, but the impression I get is right now Madden is maxing out EA's capabilities to take advantage of the 360/PS3, where clever small optimizations are the only thing left creating some room to increase available resources. Perhaps they're aiming more for their tech to be sold in time for the next generation consoles, where there will likely be a physics processor or at least framework for GPU shaders to do physics processing (like in the very recently announced DirectX 11). BTW, this particular engine may not be the way, but pure physics definitely is the way of the future for Madden. The argument is whether or not a current engine and current hardware can do it proprely, i.e. a matter of when, not if. By definition, a physics animation engine can replicate anything if built properly and if hardware can handle it.

Thats got to be the biggest load of crock ive heard in awhile, theres no way a game like madden is "maxing out" the resources of the xbox 360, im sorry, its just not happening. Backbreaker has 3d fans how is it that current madden has 2d fans but is maxing out? It doesnt make a whole lot of sense - madden is a series of animation cues, and procedural functions to execute those stored statements. How can we have games like Gears of War, Recent Strategy games with hundreds of units on screen and dynasty warriors and your telling me madden has hit a wall?!?! Wake up.

And if all that is true than its an inherent flaw in the architecture that the next-gen madden is using - perhaps it had to be rushed for madden 06 and its just not viable anymore - if thats the case do you think they will scrap it? Not likely, at least not until xbox 720.

[excaliber]

Quote: Originally Posted by coogrfan

There's something oddly appropriate about a vid where the guy talking about Backbreaker gets more facetime than the game itself. Get back to me when there's an actual game, right now this is mere vaporware.

I think you missed the point of the video it was a Fan Diary - Laying out my Excitement for the Game as well as my Concerns. I threw in a few short clips of the game as well as those two "Parodies" to make it somewhat interesting to watch...not to show case the game....

But I submit, without a publisher yet maybe it doesnt deserve your attention, but it certainly couldnt hurt the games chances by spreading the word...

My ideal situation is to have EA hire and absorb these guys to incorporate this technology into Madden.. Would you be up in arms about that?

[adembroski]

They had the non-real time version of the engine in '08. They didn't like it.

[Nza]

Quote: Originally Posted by excaliber

Thats got to be the biggest load of crock ive heard in awhile, theres no way a game like madden is "maxing out" the resources of the xbox 360, im sorry, its just not happening. Backbreaker has 3d fans how is it that current madden has 2d fans but is maxing out? It doesnt make a whole lot of sense - madden is a series of animation cues, and procedural functions to execute those stored statements. How can we have games like Gears of War, Recent Strategy games with hundreds of units on screen and dynasty warriors and your telling me madden has hit a wall?!?! Wake up. And if all that is true than its an inherent flaw in the architecture that the next-gen madden is using - perhaps it had to be rushed for madden 06 and its just not viable anymore - if thats the case do you think they will scrap it? Not likely, at least not until xbox 720.

First of all, I'm basing that assumption off of quotes from Ian where he seems to suggest they are hitting the resource wall, particularly getting the PS3 version to 60fps. I just don't think they have the room for this much more CPU intensive work.

Secondly, I said "maxing out EA's capabilities to take advantage of the 360/PS3". This could mean EA are struggling to get the most out of the system, not necessarily that they have maxed out the consoles as a whole. Not every developer is on an even playing field, particularly now with 3 core CPU's etc, as the hardware is getting more complex at a rate faster than average developers are increasing their abilities to maximize a system with optimized code. Look how long it took LucasArts to perfect their engine.

Lastly, sports games are not easily compared to shooters, or strategy titles. What AI do they have to run? most shooters these days rely on the 'dumb NPC enemy loads and is killed in a few seconds or the human dies in a few seconds' model, like COD4 single player. All they have to worry about is the strain their model polycount and texture resolutions are putting on the system. Whether Madden's AI is great or not, it's still much more advanced than any other genre really. How many games have 22 instances of human like AI to calculate? I think it's very conceivable Madden is close to maxing out these consoles, and they're really not designed to take on true physics calculations at the best of times. At least, the 360 isn't, and as the initial console, all cross platform games are designed for it first, PS3 second. For all we know, Backbreaker could be a very dumb game with restrictions on how many bodies at once can have the physics applied just so the 360 can handle it.

[excaliber]

Quote: Originally Posted by Nza

First of all, I'm basing that assumption off of quotes from Ian where he seems to suggest they are hitting the resource wall, particularly getting the PS3 version to 60fps. I just don't think they have the room for this much more CPU intensive work. Secondly, I said "maxing out EA's capabilities to take advantage of the 360/PS3". This could mean EA are struggling to get the most out of the system, not necessarily that they have maxed out the consoles as a whole. Not every developer is on an even playing field, particularly now with 3 core CPU's etc, as the hardware is getting more complex at a rate faster than average developers are increasing their abilities to maximize a system with optimized code. Look how long it took LucasArts to perfect their engine. Lastly, sports games are not easily compared to shooters, or strategy titles. What AI do they have to run? most shooters these days rely on the 'dumb NPC enemy loads and is killed in a few seconds or the human dies in a few seconds' model, like COD4 single player. All they have to worry about is the strain their model polycount and texture resolutions are putting on the system. Whether Madden's AI is great or not, it's still much more advanced than any other genre really. How many games have 22 instances of human like AI to calculate? I think it's very conceivable Madden is close to maxing out these consoles, and they're really not designed to take on true physics calculations at the best of times. At least, the 360 isn't, and as the initial console, all cross platform games are designed for it first, PS3 second. For all we know, Backbreaker could be a very dumb game with restrictions on how many bodies at once can have the physics applied just so the 360 can handle it.

You at least are defending your point but your just wrong.
Please play these games: Oblivion, Two Worlds, GTA IV, Saints Row - all of these have more than 22 instances of human AI to calculate...

[DonRSD]

Quote: Originally Posted by excaliber

Thats got to be the biggest load of crock ive heard in awhile, theres no way a game like madden is "maxing out" the resources of the xbox 360, im sorry, its just not happening. Backbreaker has 3d fans how is it that current madden has 2d fans but is maxing out? It doesnt make a whole lot of sense - madden is a series of animation cues, and procedural functions to execute those stored statements. How can we have games like Gears of War, Recent Strategy games with hundreds of units on screen and dynasty warriors and your telling me madden has hit a wall?!?! Wake up. And if all that is true than its an inherent flaw in the architecture that the next-gen madden is using - perhaps it had to be rushed for madden 06 and its just not viable anymore - if thats the case do you think they will scrap it? Not likely, at least not until xbox 720.

even a game like oblivian only used 4gb of the dvd9 space(9gb)

and whats the excuse for the storage being at a premuin for ps3?
they have a dual layer blu ray discs which can hold 50gb of space

madden is just "getting by" as they have the license

funny how all the ea games that have competetion from others (fifa, nba live) are innovative year in and year out
and games that have No competetion (football, nascar, tiger woods, etc) always stay the same and arent innovative

[excaliber]

Quote: Originally Posted by adembroski

They had the non-real time version of the engine in '08. They didn't like it.

Thats pretty interesting, do you have a link to the discussion about it, i'd really be put to ease in reading it. I think madden is a great fun game, im just thinking of ways we could improve it - I think Euphoria is one way to do that.

[Matt Diesel]

Madden can always improve. I think some sort of new engine would help as there seems to be severe limitations on the current one.