Fixing the Dline Part I - Line Stunts and Aiming Points/Charges

[BezO]

Quote: Originally Posted by TheFuture15

I'll give you a teaser on the shoot - here are the positions we are hiring for the shoot right now: Day 1: 2 RB's, 2 LB's, 1 "tackling dummy" guy Day 2: 1 FB, 1 LB, 1 OL, 1 DL Day 3: 1 WR, 1 DB, 1 QB Thought you guys would like that mocap team.

Any of these guys ever play?

Please tell your tackling dummy not to flail and to give some resistance. Professional athletes have much more body control & strength than what's represented in the game currently.

[Ian_Cummings]

Quote: Originally Posted by adembroski

I'd really like to know what triggered the FIFA revolution. It was light years behind Winning Eleven and in just 2-3 years it took off. Just an amazing and sudden advancement.

To me, this one is pretty easy to pinpoint, though not easy to accomplish.

1. In essence a 3 year cycle for next-gen transition. Small team branched out and focused purely on animation technology.
2. Incredible engineering team - truly some of the visionaries in animation at our company. They've written a lot of the core technology that is used in nearly every EA game at this point, from Madden to NBA Street to FaceBreaker.
3. Very good design direction at the top since next-gen transition. No question on their plans, and they even have had multi-year plans (for things like multi-year co-op).
4. They refused to add fluff and crazy one-off mechanics - only focused on core gameplay. Examples:
- It took them 2 years to just get special moves in the game! I would be burned at the stake if you couldn't juke or spin in Madden, but again they kept with only the core gameplay & AI.
- The back of their box has stuff like "Can you FIFA 08?" Again, no gimmicks, no fluff. As if to say "This is the most realistic representation of soccer ever. Hope you dig it.".
5. Gameplay > Graphics. Their game looks good, but I can't say it looks as good as Madden or NBA Live. This makes a more hardcore-centric gamer much happier obviously.

The thing is, I personally couldn't stand FIFA 07 - I thought it was way too sluggish as a gameplay purist. I really struggled with the fact that I'd hit shoot or pass or try to clear, and it would take forever to get the ball out. I also was really frustrated with their AI having played soccer my whole life. But gradually they started winning me over. FIFA 08 was good with a really fun Manager Mode, EURO 2008 was much tighter and more responsive, and now that we've gotten builds of FIFA 09 I am totally hooked. It's not perfect - there are still some more 'hardcore' things with their AI that really bug me, but overall the game is super-polished and really fun to play.

[Ian_Cummings]

Quote: Originally Posted by BezO

Any of these guys ever play?

No, none of them have ever played. We found a couple of college kids playing flag football and figured they'd do fine.

[/end sarcasm]


Sorry, but you have been wearing me out dude. I know it's your right, and keep up the feedback, but I'm only human. I have to be a smart-a$$ every once in a while.

As for the flailing point (which is a good one), that's something I definitely have on my radar. Specifically,


This = Bad

[DIESEL]

Quote: Originally Posted by TheFuture15

No, none of them have ever played. We found a couple of college kids playing flag football and figured they'd do fine. [/end sarcasm]

[BezO]

Quote: Originally Posted by TheFuture15

Sorry, but you have been wearing me out dude. I know it's your right, and keep up the feedback, but I'm only human. I have to be a smart-a$$ every once in a while.

I'm used to you ignoring my post, so mix in all the sarcasm you want.

Quote: Originally Posted by TheFuture15

As for the flailing point (which is a good one), that's something I definitely have on my radar. Specifically, This = Bad

That's exactly what I'm talking about.

Any chance we see vids, especially the new OL/DL interaction? And are you all working on new blocking animations for all positions? Getting some mobility in the engaged blocks would do wonders for outside runs, special teams and other areas.

And do you plan to add realistic/better physics? Prep steps before cuts & breaks, plants for even the small changes in direction, ect. It would do wonders for route, coverage & quickness ratings. And it would stop defenders from covering too much ground. I think a lot of the timing issues in the game can be attributed to the lack of prep step & plant animatons. And good route running, slower WRs won't need a speed boost to perform well.



Also, I'm sure LB will post some vids, but to fill in...



The Bangel DTs stunt. Notice how tight their twist is. When stunting, the first d-lineman's job is to cross the face & engage the o-lineman that would block him if he wasn't stunting and get him out of the way of the the d-lineman looping behind him. He doesn't free the DT, but the blitzing LB gets through.

In Madden, the loop is too wide. Things like that, the flailing and some other non-football things are why I asked if your guys played. Some of the animations look more like stunts for a football movie than NFL football.

[quagga]

In order to implement this sort of thing properly, wouldn't a complete solution/removal of suction blocking be required first?

I'm just thinking that in order to have 'aiming points' work properly, the defensive player can't be sucked onto a block.

Also, I've always thought that it's important to see blocking as something in a constant state of flux, rather than the binary blocked/not-blocked that seems to exist at the moment. Maybe Ian can shed some light on how this is going to be approached moving forward.

An example of what I mean is that a player might still be able to get in an arm tackle while being partially blocked by an o-lineman.

[BezO]

Quote: Originally Posted by quagga

In order to implement this sort of thing properly, wouldn't a complete solution/removal of suction blocking be required first? I'm just thinking that in order to have 'aiming points' work properly, the defensive player can't be sucked onto a block.

I'd guess the same, which is probably why the stunts are they way they are. If that's the case, it's another example of how these unrealistic elements tend to snowball.

Quote: Originally Posted by quagga

Also, I've always thought that it's important to see blocking as something in a constant state of flux, rather than the binary blocked/not-blocked that seems to exist at the moment. Maybe Ian can shed some light on how this is going to be approached moving forward. An example of what I mean is that a player might still be able to get in an arm tackle while being partially blocked by an o-lineman.

With what they've done so far with gang tackling, I'd guess something like this wouldn't be too far of a stretch.

It would be cool to get some technical feedback from Ian. Why exactly is it necessary to have the defender sucked in? What happens without suction? Why not have the blocker get in better position? Why the immoble engagement?

[adembroski]

Quote: Originally Posted by BezO

The Bangel DTs stunt. Notice how tight their twist is. When stunting, the first d-lineman's job is to cross the face & engage the o-lineman that would block him if he wasn't stunting and get him out of the way of the the d-lineman looping behind him. He doesn't free the DT, but the blitzing LB gets through. In Madden, the loop is too wide. Things like that, the flailing and some other non-football things are why I asked if your guys played. Some of the animations look more like stunts for a football movie than NFL football.

Other than the fact that I suck, this is precisely the reason I control defensive linemen.

I've changed to other positions to try to learn, but everytime I do I notice my defensive line lose effectiveness. As a human controlled defensive lineman, I do have aiming points, and it makes a world of difference even as the game currently is built. I am the one who plays the "take out the blocker" role, and it opens up a lot of room for computer controlled dogs.