Why still the Come Back Cheese?

[Ian_Cummings]

Quote: Originally Posted by roll2tide

but hey it's all just some big made up conspiracy put together by 1000's of EA Sports players over the years.

If it's on the internet, it must be true!

Seriously though...those results would have to be skewed somewhat. How many people do you think have posted about BS comeback AI when the opposite occurred...that they came back and won themselves?

Quote:

We know that EA has used "make-up speed" in the past to help DB's recover on PA passes and such so we do know that there is/has been code in the game to provide players a ratings boost for no reason other than the CPU AI got beat...

Hmm...I don't think this is true...I've been involved with gameplay for the better part of 7 years (and I've even snooped through the code of basically every gameplay assignment) and I don't know of any code that does this. When you say you already "know" this...where did you get that info from? You never know...I may be wrong...I would just like to see where you heard that.

[roll2tide]

I've read it in posts from a few community leaders before I know though I can't recall where but......

from '02-'06(most prevelant years i think) I think we all saw 95+ SPD WRs who had 10 yards on a sub 87 SPD safety on a PA pass get caught from behind and, many times, that safety actually broke up the play.

This was what prompted the comments that I remember and it was even kind of a running joke for a while as i remember it. The most blatant example was watching WR Joey Galloway consistently burn CB's on PA Passes only to have a SS catch up to the play while the ball was in the air (seriously, closing a 10 yard gap during the flight of the ball) and bat it away. And no, it wasn't a case of underthrown balls or QBs with noodle arms. There was a year or 2 in that span somewhere where BnR was really overused because of this......the safeties caught up to every play regardless of the speed differential.

[sketch22]

And the myth continues....

Do I believe comeback AI exists? yes and no.

Anyone who has played this game over a long enough period has seen plays that defy logic. And I have seen the AI go into unstoppable runs of quick passes. I fully believe the reason that it seems like the AI is built to come back is because to a degree it is. Now I am not saying the developers coded into the game some logic that makes the AI superhuman. What they did was inadvertently display a flaw in the program.
If you look at most of the cases of comeback AI complaints they stem from the unstoppable passing attack of the computer controlled team. But the thing is this attack exists the entire game. The only difference between the first and fourth quarters is that if the AI is losing in fourth they do what anyone does and throws the football every down. Now ask yourself how often you see incomplete passes form the computer in general. So add the extremely high completion rate to a constant aerial attack and you have the basis for the "comeback ai" complaint.
Do I believe this is intended? No. I think that there are still alot of flaws in the game and when you get toward the game the AI setup makes those flaws all the more noticeable. Add in the fact that tension and emotions always are higher towards the end of games. The problem is that people will ALWAYS remember the ridiculous plays that happen at the end to beat them, but we just shrug off most of the insane things that happen in the beggining and middle because there is still more game to play.
Agree with me or not, this is just my opinoin from having played Madden for what seems like ever.

[roll2tide]

http://hypertextbook.com/facts/2007/madden.shtml

ok this guy went a little far but he's right in concept. He uses a video and math to show that SS M Lewis from the Eagles in '06 who had a SPD of 88 and ACC of 89. Watch the side view and overhead view videos and he calculates that SS M Lewis actually displayed:

SPD rating of 162
ACC rating of 259

And this honestly isn't that bad because it's straight line distance. Who hasn't seen in previous years a SS start from the hashmark with a 10+ yard vertical distance in terms of separation from the WR and the SS still swat the ball on the sideline against a streak pattern?

Even in todays game we have the WR skate where a WR covers 5-8 yards at lightning speed. You used to be able to do this on purpose with manual catches because it was like there was this huge area around where the ball was going to end up and if you got within 5 yards or so of that area and hit the catch button then you warped to the ball instantly. Madden players have always had superhuman abilities (some consistently recreatable) in terms of speed in the right situations.

Back to the original point though.....there's no denying that defenders have had incredible makeup speed in the past.

[sketch22]

Quote: Originally Posted by roll2tide

Even in todays game we have the WR skate where a WR covers 5-8 yards at lightning speed. You used to be able to do this on purpose with manual catches because it was like there was this huge area around where the ball was going to end up and if you got within 5 yards or so of that area and hit the catch button then you warped to the ball instantly. Madden players have always had superhuman abilities (some consistently recreatable) in terms of speed in the right situations.

I think what you are talking about is another problem that I have with the core design of madden. I think the reason we see this warping of players is because the players hit some invisible boundary where the game allows for a catch or tackle animation to trigger. And that animation triggering seems to juxtapose the player to the position necessary for said animation to complete correctly. I have noticed this alot less this year, due to what I assume was a tightening of the animation requirements. Ultimately what I would love to see eventually see is madden adopt and individual rag doll physics based system instead of strict adherence to a stock repetitive animation, but that will be many years off if ever.

[TJdaSportsGuy]

Quote: Originally Posted by roll2tide

but hey it's all just some big made up conspiracy put together by 1000's of EA Sports players over the years.

...who have no clue what the hell they're talking about.

[Ian_Cummings]

Quote: Originally Posted by roll2tide

Back to the original point though.....there's no denying that defenders have had incredible makeup speed in the past.

Well, yes and no...I think I can actually deny this. This video didn't really prove anything to me, because it didn't talk about anyone else on the field either. Just because he did the math on one guy doesn't prove much of anything because what if the rest of the guys are all 88's and they are moving at the same speed. Madden 06 PS2/Xbox players at top speed ran well faster than real-life 40 times to my knowledge (i.e. more in the 3.8-3.9 range I believe).

I do however know there is the "warping" factor that many have mentioned...and that warping range has definitely allowed players to move faster than real life to match a catch or swat animation (and that definitely happened in the video above). However, that warp range is the same for both offense and defense, human and CPU, which still proves there's not specific code for defenders to make up speed.

Let me clarify first before I get jumped on...
- There is no code or logic to make the CPU better in any way if they are losing
- There is no code or logic to make a CPU player faster if he is getting beat
- There ARE a few systems in our game that don't follow true momentum rules, allowing players to achieve unrealistic speeds due to warping...catching, direction changes, and tackling fall in that category. I can't wait to fix all of them too.

[bsb13]

Quote: Originally Posted by Ian_Cummings_EA

Well, yes and no...I think I can actually deny this. This video didn't really prove anything to me, because it didn't talk about anyone else on the field either. Just because he did the math on one guy doesn't prove much of anything because what if the rest of the guys are all 88's and they are moving at the same speed. Madden 06 PS2/Xbox players at top speed ran well faster than real-life 40 times to my knowledge (i.e. more in the 3.8-3.9 range I believe). I do however know there is the "warping" factor that many have mentioned...and that warping range has definitely allowed players to move faster than real life to match a catch or swat animation (and that definitely happened in the video above). However, that warp range is the same for both offense and defense, human and CPU, which still proves there's not specific code for defenders to make up speed. Let me clarify first before I get jumped on... - There is no code or logic to make the CPU better in any way if they are losing - There is no code or logic to make a CPU player faster if he is getting beat - There ARE a few systems in our game that don't follow true momentum rules, allowing players to achieve unrealistic speeds due to warping...catching, direction changes, and tackling fall in that category. I can't wait to fix all of them too.

Just to be sure...this has always applied to the All-Madden level as well, right?