Ian or Phil- Question about Madden/NCAA philosophy

[thudias]

Quote: Originally Posted by Ian_Cummings_EA

Who are you referring to when you say 'their' design philosophy? There's really no such thing as EA Brass in these situations. Nearly every single all decision in regards to gameplay and AI is typically done very much in the trenches...design team. I just want you to know, there's really no 'they' anymore. We're all here. OMT is your line to NCAA...there's no random person in Redwood City telling him he can't put features into the game.

Ian is the "brass" in the "trenches"

[SageInfinite]

I've had a problem with this as well. I think the games should have the same features(for the most part) and take advantage of the same tech. The only differences should be the same differences the two games have in the real world.

[rhombic21]

Quote: Originally Posted by Ian_Cummings_EA

I think you are remembering a quote from me. DO wouldn't have said that. We used to be totally separate, and it was really hard to get fixes or changes back and forth to each other. Now there's this really clever code architecture where everything is shared by default, and then we have these layers of data built on top of the code allowing us to segment any game-specific changes separately. The ratings, for example, are in one of those layers though. Those have been copy/pasted from team to team in year's past...but the reason they are in separate layers is so we can make changes to how those ratings differentiate the game without breaking each other's games. If this wasn't the case, the tuning we're having to do to the game due to Donny's new ratings philosophy would be breaking NCAA all over the place. Same with CPU AI, playbooks, and TONS of gameplay tuning variables (fatigue, player turn rates, pursuit, speed curve, etc). This way, designers (for the most part) can tune the games to make them feel separate exactly how we want instead of having engineers copy and paste code into both game locations, or worse, in the code having stuff like: [code] if (Madden) fumbleChance *= .08 else if (NCAA) fumbleChance *= .05

I followed you up to this point. Why would there be a need for fumble chances to be different between the two games, from a realism standpoint? Theoretically, the fumble chances should depend on things like CAR ratings, fatigue, maybe some defender ratings, etc...Why would there be a need to compute those numbers differently between the two games?

You mentioned Donny Moore's ratings breaking NCAA. Why would that be the case though? It's not clear at all why that would happen in NCAA but not in Madden. The whole point of Donny's curve is to make special Madden players stand out. Wouldn't you think that same logic should apply to NCAA? Shouldn't Sam Bradford (or his virtual equivalent, OU QB #14), play significantly different/better than the second string QB at San Jose State? Couldn't you actually make the argument that Donny's ratings philosophy is needed even MORE with the NCAA product than with the Madden product? Why would playbooks "break" one game, but not the other? That's not clear either. I'm not clear at all on why you would want the gameplay related items to be different between the two games.

I can understand having development split off for things like art development, audio, sim logic, etc...But in terms of what happens on the field (or those things that impact that), why would you want, or need, there to be differences between the two games. If you guys on the Madden team are taking it as your mantra that you want gameplay to reflect real life football, and those same gameplay changes aren't reflected in NCAA, then how are fans supposed to interpret that? Does that mean that the NCAA team doesn't care about gameplay realism? Does that mean that they think that your gameplay changes aren't actually realistic? Those are really the only two reasons why you would make a gameplay related change in one game, and not want it to appear in the other as well.

Can you give me one example of a gameplay related issue that would need to be treated differently between the two games in order to reflect realism?

[chia51]

Thanks Ian for the insight

[Glorious Arc]

I too would like to know how the rating curve change in madden breaks ncaa?

[adembroski]

Quote: Originally Posted by Ian_Cummings_EA

I think you are remembering a quote from me. DO wouldn't have said that.

Do I note a bit of hostility here?

Quote: Originally Posted by Ian_Cumings_EA

We used to be totally separate, and it was really hard to get fixes or changes back and forth to each other. Now there's this really clever code architecture where everything is shared by default, and then we have these layers of data built on top of the code allowing us to segment any game-specific changes separately. The ratings, for example, are in one of those layers though. Those have been copy/pasted from team to team in year's past...but the reason they are in separate layers is so we can make changes to how those ratings differentiate the game without breaking each other's games. If this wasn't the case, the tuning we're having to do to the game due to Donny's new ratings philosophy would be breaking NCAA all over the place. Same with CPU AI, playbooks, and TONS of gameplay tuning variables (fatigue, player turn rates, pursuit, speed curve, etc). This way, designers (for the most part) can tune the games to make them feel separate exactly how we want instead of having engineers copy and paste code into both game locations, or worse, in the code having stuff like: if (Madden) fumbleChance *= .08 else if (NCAA) fumbleChance *= .05 For us, compiling the game on these new next-gen platforms takes typically anywhere from 10 to 25 minutes...so that's the main reason we've pushed so much tuning out to data and other tools that allow live iteration. On PS2 it would take 25 seconds...we'd reboot, and see our changes...now it's just a total time killer to make code changes. Anyway, in the case of the new ratings, that change is deliberate. As OMT said in one of his posts, they picked something else to add to the game instead of the new ratings. The gameplay code is kind of oblivious to what gets passed into it...that's the way you want it to be. Here's some pseudo architecture...Red is the gameplay code, green is Madden code, blue is NCAA code: PASS BUTTON PUSHED | GET ACCURACY OF PASS | Determine Distance | Use mid, short, or deep acc to determine acc | Are you moving? | Use throw on run to mod acc penalty | Return Accuracy of Pass | THROW THE BALL PASS BUTTON PUSHED | GET ACCURACY OF PASS | Use throw acc to determine acc | Are you moving? | Mod acc penalty with pre-set number | Return Accuracy of Pass | THROW THE BALL

I love pseudo code:P

Thanks for this post, Ian. Answered all my questions and then some.

[Ian_Cummings]

Quote: Originally Posted by rhombic21

I followed you up to this point. Why would there be a need for fumble chances to be different between the two games, from a realism standpoint? Theoretically, the fumble chances should depend on things like CAR ratings, fatigue, maybe some defender ratings, etc...Why would there be a need to compute those numbers differently between the two games?

That was just an example...as of now, we actually don't differentiate fumble chances between the games, but if for whatever reason the NCAA team wanted more fumbles than Madden or something, they'd have that option.

Quote:

You mentioned Donny Moore's ratings breaking NCAA. Why would that be the case though? It's not clear at all why that would happen in NCAA but not in Madden. The whole point of Donny's curve is to make special Madden players stand out. Wouldn't you think that same logic should apply to NCAA? Shouldn't Sam Bradford (or his virtual equivalent, OU QB #14), play significantly different/better than the second string QB at San Jose State? Couldn't you actually make the argument that Donny's ratings philosophy is needed even MORE with the NCAA product than with the Madden product?

I don't mean that Donny's ratings would break NCAA...I mean that the tuning that we do to account for Donny's ratings would break if it was done in shared code. Say Madden has players that live on a scale of 40 to 99 in something like pursuit or something, well you have to tune the actual logic of pursuit to account for that...to differentiate the guys correctly and to make sure that even at a 40 rating they don't act like braindead morons (for example). But if we made that change in shared place that NCAA also inherited from, and they only have a scrunched rating set of 70-99 or something, then basically their game might have every player play identical to each other in terms of pursuit. This would happen all over the place...it's just a general rule that you don't want to be doing tuning for your game that may break someone else's work. Say we really want something that NCAA doesn't...our architecture leaves that option on the table.

I can't answer for them as to whether they are or are not spreading out their ratings like Donny is doing for us, and why they'd decide either way.

Quote:

Why would playbooks "break" one game, but not the other? That's not clear either. I'm not clear at all on why you would want the gameplay related items to be different between the two games.

There may be specific logic or tuning that has been done on defense to handle things like the option that hasn't been tuned in the other game. Playbooks for the most part won't break each other though...

Quote:

I can understand having development split off for things like art development, audio, sim logic, etc...But in terms of what happens on the field (or those things that impact that), why would you want, or need, there to be differences between the two games.

You have to have the layered approach for things to keep the game different, no matter what the feature. Features like motivation and home field advantage for example...those are based on ratings and very closely intertwined into core gameplay...if Madden doesn't want those changes, or doesn't want them to be as effective or whatever, then that's the flexibility afforded to you.

Quote:

If you guys on the Madden team are taking it as your mantra that you want gameplay to reflect real life football, and those same gameplay changes aren't reflected in NCAA, then how are fans supposed to interpret that? Does that mean that the NCAA team doesn't care about gameplay realism? Does that mean that they think that your gameplay changes aren't actually realistic? Those are really the only two reasons why you would make a gameplay related change in one game, and not want it to appear in the other as well.

I can't imagine them saying that they don't care about gameplay realism, and I can't imagine them thinking that our changes aren't based on creating more realism. But unfortunately I can't really answer more than that...you'd have to ask the NCAA guys about their design decisions...I am totally out of the loop on that.

Quote:

Can you give me one example of a gameplay related issue that would need to be treated differently between the two games in order to reflect realism?

As listed above...home field advantage. There's other features like momentum & motivation, or Rivalries. In the future, maybe things like attitudes and personalities are wanted in the pros and don't make sense in NCAA. All of those may not seem like 'gameplay' at the core, but they are in gameplay code and tie directly into gameplay logic...so they have to be segmented out.

[rhombic21]

Quote: Originally Posted by Ian_Cummings_EA

That was just an example...as of now, we actually don't differentiate fumble chances between the games, but if for whatever reason the NCAA team wanted more fumbles than Madden or something, they'd have that option.

Right, but the question is: why would the NCAA team ever want to have different fumble sliders (or whatever other example you want to use) than the Madden team does?

Quote:

I don't mean that Donny's ratings would break NCAA...I mean that the tuning that we do to account for Donny's ratings would break if it was done in shared code. Say Madden has players that live on a scale of 40 to 99 in something like pursuit or something, well you have to tune the actual logic of pursuit to account for that...to differentiate the guys correctly and to make sure that even at a 40 rating they don't act like braindead morons (for example). But if we made that change in shared place that NCAA also inherited from, and they only have a scrunched rating set of 70-99 or something, then basically their game might have every player play identical to each other in terms of pursuit. This would happen all over the place...it's just a general rule that you don't want to be doing tuning for your game that may break someone else's work. Say we really want something that NCAA doesn't...our architecture leaves that option on the table. I can't answer for them as to whether they are or are not spreading out their ratings like Donny is doing for us, and why they'd decide either way.

I understand that you can't answer for them, but I'm just saying that from our point, it's not clear why one set of changes are being implemented for one game under the mantra of ultra realism, and then the other game isn't doing the same thing. What conclusion could a fan draw other than that the NCAA team doesn't care about realism as much as the Madden team does.

The difference in skill level between really good players and average/mediocre players is even WIDER in college than it is in the NFL, so theoretically if your ratings idea is successful in Madden, it would be even more necessary for NCAA.

Quote:

You have to have the layered approach for things to keep the game different, no matter what the feature. Features like motivation and home field advantage for example...those are based on ratings and very closely intertwined into core gameplay...if Madden doesn't want those changes, or doesn't want them to be as effective or whatever, then that's the flexibility afforded to you.

This is another example though where it's not clear why the feature is in one game and not the other. Again, if you want us to believe that the mantra for both teams is "realism", and these features are having a significant impact on gameplay, then there's no clear reason why they would be included in one game, but not in the other. Why, for example, aren't these things in Madden?

You are right that ideally it would be a good idea to talk to the NCAA team directly. Unfortunately, nobody that makes high level gameplay decisions for NCAA is participating on the boards like you, Donny, and Phil are, so we don't have access to them. Obviously I don't expect you to bash the NCAA team here, but honestly, I don't know how else to interpret this. The Madden team is implementing a series of changes geared at making the game play more authentic to the sport of football, and at least some of these changes are not being carried over into NCAA. Either the changes aren't really producing realism in Madden, or NCAA will be less sim than Madden is (by design). There's really no other way to interpret it.

I understand the reason why you would want to have a layered approach. I can agree that there might be some instances in the future where it makes sense to change some aspect of gameplay independent of the other game. But with respect to the changes that have been discussed so far this year, it's not clear why those things aren't being carried over to NCAA. Particularly if the goal of both teams is equally towards delivering a realistic gameplay experience.