Ian or Phil- Question about Madden/NCAA philosophy

[adembroski]

For a long time, the NCAA and Madden teams worked relatively independently. NCAA would always be adding its own stuff, Madden would have its own stuff, and then maybe they'd borrow from one another the next year. The theory was that they wanted each game to have a distinct feel.

Entering the NextGen era, I know David Ortiz mentioned a change in approach in that manor. As best as I can quote him from memory, he said "We want there to be differences, but we want the differences to be deliberate."

I'm curious as to what this new regimes feeling on this issue is. Personally, though I really have my issues with Ortiz's tenure on Madden, I do prefer his thinking to before. I think Madden and NCAA should start as the *same* game, with each team tweaking it to match their game. In other words; there should be one "football" game- same mechanics, same technology, same attributes, same basic feel, but with the differences coming out in tuning and environment.

Anybody else have thoughts on this? (it'd be cool to have OMT hop over here and chime in as well, but I don't wanna make two threads)

[Blazin4QB]

Quote: Originally Posted by adembroski

For a long time, the NCAA and Madden teams worked relatively independently. NCAA would always be adding its own stuff, Madden would have its own stuff, and then maybe they'd borrow from one another the next year. The theory was that they wanted each game to have a distinct feel. Entering the NextGen era, I know David Ortiz mentioned a change in approach in that manor. As best as I can quote him from memory, he said "We want there to be differences, but we want the differences to be deliberate." I'm curious as to what this new regimes feeling on this issue is. Personally, though I really have my issues with Ortiz's tenure on Madden, I do prefer his thinking to before. I think Madden and NCAA should start as the *same* game, with each team tweaking it to match their game. In other words; there should be one "football" game- same mechanics, same technology, same attributes, same basic feel, but with the differences coming out in tuning and environment. Anybody else have thoughts on this? (it'd be cool to have OMT hop over here and chime in as well, but I don't wanna make two threads)

I think this a good idea because they would have a bigger team developing madden and ncaa which helps both parties in the end

[jfsolo]

The decision to not implement the new quarterback attributes, does seem to underscore the frustration that many of us have with their design philosophy when it comes to gameplay tech/A.I.

Both games may end up being great, but from the outsider perspective, each lacking some major gameplay enhancement that could really benefit the game.

The EA Brass seem intent on having not only differences in features, but in gameplay/A.I. as well. Despite all our protests that they not go this route, they continue to think that this is a good idea.

Hopefully within the next couple of iterations of the two games, we can convince them otherwise.

[Ian_Cummings]

Quote: Originally Posted by adembroski

For a long time, the NCAA and Madden teams worked relatively independently. NCAA would always be adding its own stuff, Madden would have its own stuff, and then maybe they'd borrow from one another the next year. The theory was that they wanted each game to have a distinct feel. Entering the NextGen era, I know David Ortiz mentioned a change in approach in that manor. As best as I can quote him from memory, he said "We want there to be differences, but we want the differences to be deliberate." I'm curious as to what this new regimes feeling on this issue is. Personally, though I really have my issues with Ortiz's tenure on Madden, I do prefer his thinking to before. I think Madden and NCAA should start as the *same* game, with each team tweaking it to match their game. In other words; there should be one "football" game- same mechanics, same technology, same attributes, same basic feel, but with the differences coming out in tuning and environment. Anybody else have thoughts on this? (it'd be cool to have OMT hop over here and chime in as well, but I don't wanna make two threads)

I think you are remembering a quote from me. DO wouldn't have said that.

We used to be totally separate, and it was really hard to get fixes or changes back and forth to each other. Now there's this really clever code architecture where everything is shared by default, and then we have these layers of data built on top of the code allowing us to segment any game-specific changes separately. The ratings, for example, are in one of those layers though. Those have been copy/pasted from team to team in year's past...but the reason they are in separate layers is so we can make changes to how those ratings differentiate the game without breaking each other's games. If this wasn't the case, the tuning we're having to do to the game due to Donny's new ratings philosophy would be breaking NCAA all over the place. Same with CPU AI, playbooks, and TONS of gameplay tuning variables (fatigue, player turn rates, pursuit, speed curve, etc). This way, designers (for the most part) can tune the games to make them feel separate exactly how we want instead of having engineers copy and paste code into both game locations, or worse, in the code having stuff like:

if (Madden)
   fumbleChance *= .08
else if (NCAA)
   fumbleChance *= .05

For us, compiling the game on these new next-gen platforms takes typically anywhere from 10 to 25 minutes...so that's the main reason we've pushed so much tuning out to data and other tools that allow live iteration. On PS2 it would take 25 seconds...we'd reboot, and see our changes...now it's just a total time killer to make code changes.

Anyway, in the case of the new ratings, that change is deliberate. As OMT said in one of his posts, they picked something else to add to the game instead of the new ratings. The gameplay code is kind of oblivious to what gets passed into it...that's the way you want it to be. Here's some pseudo architecture...Red is the gameplay code, green is Madden code, blue is NCAA code:

PASS BUTTON PUSHED
|
GET ACCURACY OF PASS
|
Determine Distance
|
Use mid, short, or deep acc to determine acc
|
Are you moving?
|
Use throw on run to mod acc penalty
|
Return Accuracy of Pass
|
THROW THE BALL



PASS BUTTON PUSHED
|
GET ACCURACY OF PASS
|
Use throw acc to determine acc
|
Are you moving?
|
Mod acc penalty with pre-set number
|
Return Accuracy of Pass
|
THROW THE BALL

[Ian_Cummings]

Quote: Originally Posted by jfsolo

The decision to not implement the new quarterback attributes, does seem to underscore the frustration that many of us have with their design philosophy when it comes to gameplay tech/A.I.

Who are you referring to when you say 'their' design philosophy?

Quote:

Both games may end up being great, but from the outsider perspective, each lacking some major gameplay enhancement that could really benefit the game. The EA Brass seem intent on having not only differences in features, but in gameplay/A.I. as well. Despite all our protests that they not go this route, they continue to think that this is a good idea. Hopefully within the next couple of iterations of the two games, we can convince them otherwise.

There's really no such thing as EA Brass in these situations. Nearly every single all decision in regards to gameplay and AI is typically done very much in the trenches...design team.

I just want you to know, there's really no 'they' anymore. We're all here. OMT is your line to NCAA...there's no random person in Redwood City telling him he can't put features into the game.

[BigDuke]

Quote: Originally Posted by adembroski

Anybody else have thoughts on this? (it'd be cool to have OMT hop over here and chime in as well, but I don't wanna make two threads)

I think the underlying game should be the same. Afterall, it's still football, whether it's college or NFL. Also, after playing NCAA for a month, I don't want to have to learn a new game when I play Madden.

But there is a difference between college and pro football, different gameplay styles, players' abilities, atmosphere etc. I think these differences should be evident in each game. I think EA has done a good job in some of these areas.

But then they do things like not including the new QB ratings in NCAA and it really is frustrating to us fans, especially those of us who want a realistic transition with the NCAA players we import into Madden.

I can reluctantly accept that these ratings weren't included in NCAA, as long as I stay within the confines of NCAA. The ratings weren't there before and who knows how effective they would have been. But when my NCAA dynasty has bearing on my Madden franchise, then I'm concerned.

For me, these games are an all or nothing purchase. NCAA seems pointless without the continuation of players' careers into Madden and Madden seems pointless without being able to import "real" rookies from NCAA. So if these missing ratings aren't realistically generated during the draft class import, that breaks my Madden franchise, which means I skip another year of both games.

[nexdawg]

I have to agree that Madden and NCAA should have been on the same page with the new QB ratings. I know OMT has said that they went with another "unknown" system and theres no telling which 1 will be better ,but I feel strongly that they should have went with the same system period. I love importing the draft class it adds so much to replay vaule to do so. Whats going happen with two system is a NCAA QB is going to come into Madden with 78pass power and 97 deep ball acc. QB with 54 spd and 96 throwing on the run and thats going be a huge topic i can already see it. This is a recipe for some bizarre rating anomalies!

[Golden28]

Quote: Originally Posted by Ian_Cummings_EA

I think you are remembering a quote from me. DO wouldn't have said that. We used to be totally separate, and it was really hard to get fixes or changes back and forth to each other. Now there's this really clever code architecture where everything is shared by default, and then we have these layers of data built on top of the code allowing us to segment any game-specific changes separately. The ratings, for example, are in one of those layers though. Those have been copy/pasted from team to team in year's past...but the reason they are in separate layers is so we can make changes to how those ratings differentiate the game without breaking each other's games. If this wasn't the case, the tuning we're having to do to the game due to Donny's new ratings philosophy would be breaking NCAA all over the place. Same with CPU AI, playbooks, and TONS of gameplay tuning variables (fatigue, player turn rates, pursuit, speed curve, etc). This way, designers (for the most part) can tune the games to make them feel separate exactly how we want instead of having engineers copy and paste code into both game locations, or worse, in the code having stuff like: if (Madden) fumbleChance *= .08 else if (NCAA) fumbleChance *= .05 For us, compiling the game on these new next-gen platforms takes typically anywhere from 10 to 25 minutes...so that's the main reason we've pushed so much tuning out to data and other tools that allow live iteration. On PS2 it would take 25 seconds...we'd reboot, and see our changes...now it's just a total time killer to make code changes. Anyway, in the case of the new ratings, that change is deliberate. As OMT said in one of his posts, they picked something else to add to the game instead of the new ratings. The gameplay code is kind of oblivious to what gets passed into it...that's the way you want it to be. Here's some pseudo architecture...Red is the gameplay code, green is Madden code, blue is NCAA code: PASS BUTTON PUSHED | GET ACCURACY OF PASS | Determine Distance | Use mid, short, or deep acc to determine acc | Are you moving? | Use throw on run to mod acc penalty | Return Accuracy of Pass | THROW THE BALL PASS BUTTON PUSHED | GET ACCURACY OF PASS | Use throw acc to determine acc | Are you moving? | Mod acc penalty with pre-set number | Return Accuracy of Pass | THROW THE BALL

Another fascinating insight into the programming process.
This really is great stuff.
It won't be long before Ian lets us all start sending in code for him to put straight into the game
Thanks as always for taking this time to explain things to us.