OT's vs DE's/OLB's and the Pocket

[thekodinator]

Wow, the names on the back of the cowboys' jerseys are huge

[Sven Draconian]

I'm just going to say this, not neccesarily directed at anyone, but more of a general statement.

There seems to be a "myth" getting stronger and stronger lately about the 3-4 nose guard (tackle, whatever you want to call him).

It's grown from, "He needs to be a force that gets double teams" into "He needs to DEMAND a double team" to "He should get doubled every play" to "He should get doubled, blow a blocker back and make the tackle on any ISO" to finally "MINIMUM of 3 blockers need to dedicate themselves to the nose, usually 4 for a guy like Hampton and no linebacker should ever be blocked."

Perhaps I exagerate (a bit), but you get my point. Nobody gets doubled on every snap. It's not practical from a gameplan persepctive and is really just something for the color commentator to blab about.

There are very few teams that still play the 2-gap nose tackle. New England (and, most likely, KC) are about it (Maybe Miami?). The others usually slant and stunt. Obviously, by virtue of being 330 pounds these guys tend to take up space, but that doesn't make them vicious blocker eaters alone.

Now, if you run a dive (or ISO ect) right behind your guard sure, someone should double down on the nose. If you're running off-tackle (say, a true Power-O) and the NT is slanting into it, he should probably get chipped by the guard and center before one of them leaves to a LB. Sometimes the nose should hold up the chip, sometimes he should beat the double, sometimes he should get pushed back a little.

At the same time, he should get cut just as often. If he slants right on a play to the left, he isn't going to get doubled. They aren't going to double him on a toss.

If he's a two gap player they shouldn't double him on the zone/stretch play. If he's a slant guy then they will chip him quickly (just like the Power-O), if he slants at the run; or they'll just cut him (most likely scenario).

The NFL is primarily a zone running lead. There are a few power teams, but most of them are zone, zone stretch style of running. Usually the power teams have the nice, big guards and center that don't have to double the nose every snap.

I obviously want double teams, but lets not exagerate their importance. Defensive ends get doubled just as much as the 3-4 nose and are just as crucial for tieing up blockers. Sure, there are times when that nose will eat up two blockers and create a bubble. Obviously double teams happen. But its not an every play thing, a couple of times a game..and sometimes none.

There is a lot more to blocking/DL play than "DEMANDING A DOUBLE TEAM". Most double teams are quick, then one players moves on to the LB.

[LBzrule]

Quote: Originally Posted by Sven Draconian

I'm just going to say this, not neccesarily directed at anyone, but more of a general statement. There seems to be a "myth" getting stronger and stronger lately about the 3-4 nose guard (tackle, whatever you want to call him). It's grown from, "He needs to be a force that gets double teams" into "He needs to DEMAND a double team" to "He should get doubled every play" to "He should get doubled, blow a blocker back and make the tackle on any ISO" to finally "MINIMUM of 3 blockers need to dedicate themselves to the nose, usually 4 for a guy like Hampton and no linebacker should ever be blocked." Perhaps I exagerate (a bit), but you get my point. Nobody gets doubled on every snap. It's not practical from a gameplan persepctive and is really just something for the color commentator to blab about. There are very few teams that still play the 2-gap nose tackle. New England (and, most likely, KC) are about it (Maybe Miami?). The others usually slant and stunt. Obviously, by virtue of being 330 pounds these guys tend to take up space, but that doesn't make them vicious blocker eaters alone. Now, if you run a dive (or ISO ect) right behind your guard sure, someone should double down on the nose. If you're running off-tackle (say, a true Power-O) and the NT is slanting into it, he should probably get chipped by the guard and center before one of them leaves to a LB. Sometimes the nose should hold up the chip, sometimes he should beat the double, sometimes he should get pushed back a little. At the same time, he should get cut just as often. If he slants right on a play to the left, he isn't going to get doubled. They aren't going to double him on a toss. If he's a two gap player they shouldn't double him on the zone/stretch play. If he's a slant guy then they will chip him quickly (just like the Power-O), if he slants at the run; or they'll just cut him (most likely scenario). The NFL is primarily a zone running lead. There are a few power teams, but most of them are zone, zone stretch style of running. Usually the power teams have the nice, big guards and center that don't have to double the nose every snap. I obviously want double teams, but lets not exagerate their importance. Defensive ends get doubled just as much as the 3-4 nose and are just as crucial for tieing up blockers. Sure, there are times when that nose will eat up two blockers and create a bubble. Obviously double teams happen. But its not an every play thing, a couple of times a game..and sometimes none. There is a lot more to blocking/DL play than "DEMANDING A DOUBLE TEAM". Most double teams are quick, then one players moves on to the LB.

Yeah, that's why I don't like to use the language double team that much. I'd rather use combo and peel. I've been trying to say this too. Guys do not get double teamed every play. And you are right about the DE's. I know for the Ravens, the NT does not get doubled much at all. But Ngata does, however, not every play. I'd just like to see them get penetration against single blocks sometimes rather than simply stalemating.

[sportyguyfl31]

Very good stuff.

To me, this is one of the most fundamental aspects of football, and it is vital to get it correct.

I like to control a DT and if I have a stud there, I expect to see some serious disruption, based on matchups, playcalling, formations, etc.

Basically, If I have a all pro caliber DT , and he's matched up against your joe average, NFL starter, I expect that my opponent will have to account for me. Some if I am controling a elite edge rusher.

Im not asking for auto pressure, but consitant, acknowledgement of my existance, and the need to gameplan accordingly.

[RogueHominid]

Quote: Originally Posted by CreatineKasey

Exactly. The NG is the engine that drives the 3-4 and to not personify that will ruin any fancy scheme the game tries to portray. It all starts right there.

This is a very interesting statement, Kasey, and one that would be good for conversation.

I agree, in a way, that the NG is a key part of the 34, but when thinking about the most potent manifestations of this defense, it seems that stud linebackers are actually the key, and that the stud rush backer is actually the engine.

I was just thinking about the Parcells Giants, the Schottenheimer Chiefs, and the Cowher Steelers before Hampton. Jim Burt, Erik Howard, and Dan Saleamua were good (but not great). I wonder, though, if there were more Joel Steeds than anything else, though, and that's why teams went with 34 alignments. You really just need someone gritty and either fat or strong to take up space.

The LBs on those teams were just sick, by contrast. LT, DT, Lloyd and Greene, etc.

Granted, the LB can't do their thing if the DL can't hold up blockers, but it still seems that the LB really "drive" the defense.

The reason I bring this up is that it's very hard to make a 34 OLB really feel like he should. We know this is also the case to a degree in APF. Not ever 34 OLB is the kind of difference maker that Ware and Merriman are, but I'd love for us to feel that difference in an authentic way, and I think that getting this right in the game is just as important as having NT that take up space and blockers.

What do you think?

[CreatineKasey]

Quote: Originally Posted by The Autumn Wind

This is a very interesting statement, Kasey, and one that would be good for conversation. I agree, in a way, that the NG is a key part of the 34, but when thinking about the most potent manifestations of this defense, it seems that stud linebackers are actually the key, and that the stud rush backer is actually the engine. I was just thinking about the Parcells Giants, the Schottenheimer Chiefs, and the Cowher Steelers before Hampton. Jim Burt, Erik Howard, and Dan Saleamua were good (but not great). I wonder, though, if there were more Joel Steeds than anything else, though, and that's why teams went with 34 alignments. You really just need someone gritty and either fat or strong to take up space. The LBs on those teams were just sick, by contrast. LT, DT, Lloyd and Greene, etc. Granted, the LB can't do their thing if the DL can't hold up blockers, but it still seems that the LB really "drive" the defense. The reason I bring this up is that it's very hard to make a 34 OLB really feel like he should. We know this is also the case to a degree in APF. Not ever 34 OLB is the kind of difference maker that Ware and Merriman are, but I'd love for us to feel that difference in an authentic way, and I think that getting this right in the game is just as important as having NT that take up space and blockers. What do you think?

Good point. I always just think of Jamal Williams when I think of NG's. I remember seeing teams try to run the A gap against him and really struggle.

I think you are right, though. If you don't have that premier pass-rushing OLB to strike fear into that offense, you really will struggle with 3-4 pressure. A similar comparison would be the necessity for a 4-3 DE like Jared Allen or John Abraham. You need a guy that challenges the LT, something they need to respect.

Time to throw might be the easiest way to break even the most talented defensive backfields. It doesn't matter if you have the best athletes all in their prime going against 3rd string WR's, if you give them time they WILL get open. They are all professionals.

More on topic to the thread, I'm completely with LBzrule regarding the rush OLB running the loop, dipping underneath the OT and ripping up to bull past him then finally chopping the ball out of the QB's hands. That was one of the most exciting factors of watching Steeler defense, is seeing Harrison and other top LB's in the past just go to work. I will be pretty disappointed if I don't see a ball strip animation on the QB in the game.

[REDRZA]

Let's just call it what it is. The entire reason for the pocket is because its a "safe zone" for the QB to step up into to AVOID pressure to buy a few precious seconds to get a pass off.

The pocket, in most cases, should be respected by the QB. This doesn't just come into play for lateral movement, but the dropback too. With the DE's rushing on the outside shoulder of the OT's, if a QB DOESN'T step up, the ends would blow right by the tackles to the QB. This just doesnt happen in Madden.

The sprint straight backwards idiots have gotten away with this tactic because Madden not only allows it, its actually EFFECTIVE. Like i stated above, the way to fix it is simple really. If the QB drops back (or sprints backwards) too far the DE's or OLB's should be ON HIS ***!! (pardon the french). Secondly, common sense tells you that the QB is adding distance to his throw, and in some cases throwing on the run. The QB's ARM STRENGTH and ACCURACY should take big hits when more than 10 yds BEHIND the LOS, and/or throwing while moving.

EA/Tiburon has NOT penalized players who use this unrealistic FOOTBALL tactic nearly enough. This has been an eyesore for realism, and has crippled gameplay for far too long.

[sportyguyfl31]

I just have to say that this is one of the more enjoyable threads on this forum.

Can I just send all of you dudes Friend Requests so I can play som sim heads when this thing comes out?

This is the type of stuff I care about. I'm a "front 7" guy. I want to know how guys like Woodley, Harrison, Hampton, Jenkins, Suggs, Ware, Lewis, Ngata, Dockett, Peppers, Porter, Tuck, etc..are going to play.

Getting these guys right is every bit as important.