OT's vs DE's/OLB's and the Pocket

[murry]

Good posts. This is one of the better threads that I have read here lately. I am a bit perplexed as to why no Madden 10 team member has chimed in. My biggest concern has been the pass rush after viewing the recent Madden 10 videos.

As football fans, we all know that an effective pass rush is crucial. If you are not able to pressure the QB, then any NFL QB will torch you (except for a few maybe). I have yet to see any videos that have displayed true pressure from the DE's.

Since most of us have played football on one level or another, we should all be able to agree that the pass rush is a very important aspect of football. Unfortunately, Madden 10 has not shown me an effective pass rush (yet).

LBrulez has shown some good videos from APF 2K8 that illustrate effective (not perfect) pass rushing. APF did a good job allowing the DE's to pressure you from the outside, and force you to step up, or get sacked. They also did a good job at allowing pressure from up the middle. I played many games that only allowed me very little time to get rid of the ball. I have yet to feel pressure like that in any Madden game (from the DL).

The main problem that I am seeing with Madden is that the DE rush is way too slow. All of you guys that have played defense know that on passing plays, DE's tend to get a burst of energy and start salivating at the opportunity to get a sack. In Madden, I am not seeing a sense of urgency from the DE's.

In real life, some DE's will take a hard rush to the outside and shoot past the QB, and I think Madden desperately needs those animations (it will stop the QB dash left and right). Ian stated that some APF animations are too long. I think that they were trying to show how a players momentum will carry them out of the play (past the QB). This happens all the time in football. Not every player can slam on the brakes if they are at full speed trying to get up-field. They are basically trying to stop their momentum and the OL's momentum at the same time, and that is why some fly past the QB (if engaged).

I agree with DocHolliday's post based on the fact that on third and long, or plays that we suspect are passing plays, the DE's should not worry about the run, and just look to beat the blocker and get to the QB. Since the D-line would be flying up the field, it would finally allow the draw plays to be effective and open up more needed strategy in Madden games.

Like a few have already stated, the QB hits his last step in his drop, and the D-line is not even close. Maybe they can slow down the QB drop, or speed up the D-line reaction time after the snap. Make the D-line acceleration rating matter for speed rushers. It should allow a pocket to form better. Right now, I have yet to see a good pocket for Madden 10. It still looks like the QB dash left and right will be in the game.

[noplace]

You're right LB. Although Madden 10 has done a good job with the interaction this year, it still seems like the DE has not mind of his own but to engage the OL instead of just beating him upfield. Its still a little to much pattie cake going on. OL should have to react to what the DE is doing instead of them engaging 1st. It even steams like the DE will glady stay there & do it with the OT without trying to get to the QB. It looks sound though & maybe we will have to control alot of that.

[adembroski]

Quote: Originally Posted by Sven Draconian

I'm just going to say this, not neccesarily directed at anyone, but more of a general statement. There seems to be a "myth" getting stronger and stronger lately about the 3-4 nose guard (tackle, whatever you want to call him). It's grown from, "He needs to be a force that gets double teams" into "He needs to DEMAND a double team" to "He should get doubled every play" to "He should get doubled, blow a blocker back and make the tackle on any ISO" to finally "MINIMUM of 3 blockers need to dedicate themselves to the nose, usually 4 for a guy like Hampton and no linebacker should ever be blocked." Perhaps I exagerate (a bit), but you get my point. Nobody gets doubled on every snap. It's not practical from a gameplan persepctive and is really just something for the color commentator to blab about. There are very few teams that still play the 2-gap nose tackle. New England (and, most likely, KC) are about it (Maybe Miami?). The others usually slant and stunt. Obviously, by virtue of being 330 pounds these guys tend to take up space, but that doesn't make them vicious blocker eaters alone. Now, if you run a dive (or ISO ect) right behind your guard sure, someone should double down on the nose. If you're running off-tackle (say, a true Power-O) and the NT is slanting into it, he should probably get chipped by the guard and center before one of them leaves to a LB. Sometimes the nose should hold up the chip, sometimes he should beat the double, sometimes he should get pushed back a little. At the same time, he should get cut just as often. If he slants right on a play to the left, he isn't going to get doubled. They aren't going to double him on a toss. If he's a two gap player they shouldn't double him on the zone/stretch play. If he's a slant guy then they will chip him quickly (just like the Power-O), if he slants at the run; or they'll just cut him (most likely scenario). The NFL is primarily a zone running lead. There are a few power teams, but most of them are zone, zone stretch style of running. Usually the power teams have the nice, big guards and center that don't have to double the nose every snap. I obviously want double teams, but lets not exagerate their importance. Defensive ends get doubled just as much as the 3-4 nose and are just as crucial for tieing up blockers. Sure, there are times when that nose will eat up two blockers and create a bubble. Obviously double teams happen. But its not an every play thing, a couple of times a game..and sometimes none. There is a lot more to blocking/DL play than "DEMANDING A DOUBLE TEAM". Most double teams are quick, then one players moves on to the LB.

I get the feeling this is somewhat directed at me. I'd like to point out that the Iso is specifically what I was talking about. I had specifically looked into the 3-4 tackle via the Falcons vs. the Steelers by running Iso... meaning Todd McClure vs. Casey Hampton.

Casey Hampton is going to blow this play up with McClure alone blocking him a very large portion of the time. The idea that the Falcons would actually expose McClure that way is ridiculous. He's a 280-285 lb finess blocker... if he's got the angle, he can effectively block a lot of guys bigger than him, but he's not going to win head up against a 320 pounder who also happens to be one of the best 2-gappers in the game.

[CreatineKasey]

Lbz - How are the pass rush moves in M10? So you can pursue and pressure the QB with the R stick... how does that translate into moves? Does it ever?

As far as block shedding on run plays, do you use the R stick also, or do you just guide your player? Do you execute moves with a button?

Can you tackle someone while being blocked?

Can you manipulate the blocker into a runner? (This would be huge!)

Is it difficult to shed blocks with the R stick then hit a button to perform another operation... like jump or dive?

Just some points of discussion on this meat and potatoes gameplay topic. This is why I play football games... to work with the things that are discussed in this thread.

[NYG 5]

i want to see a video of a lineman using power moves to get through a player. so far we've only seen sorta finesse moves where guys are using speed to get around a player or spin (which have looked great, although a little slow, but i'm sure it must be hard to find balance between madden 07-09 instant full speed players and realistic speed).

but seeing a player bull rush like michael strahan or reggie white would really shut me up

[Sven Draconian]

Quote: Originally Posted by adembroski

I get the feeling this is somewhat directed at me. I'd like to point out that the Iso is specifically what I was talking about. I had specifically looked into the 3-4 tackle via the Falcons vs. the Steelers by running Iso... meaning Todd McClure vs. Casey Hampton. Casey Hampton is going to blow this play up with McClure alone blocking him a very large portion of the time. The idea that the Falcons would actually expose McClure that way is ridiculous. He's a 280-285 lb finess blocker... if he's got the angle, he can effectively block a lot of guys bigger than him, but he's not going to win head up against a 320 pounder who also happens to be one of the best 2-gappers in the game.

Naa, not you. It was a different post in the thread that finally motivated me to type that out. I've been thinking it for a while.

The ISO thing just popped up because you had the most recent post on the subject (Top of the mind)

[lint]

Quote: Originally Posted by Sven Draconian

Naa, not you. It was a different post in the thread that finally motivated me to type that out. I've been thinking it for a while. The ISO thing just popped up because you had the most recent post on the subject (Top of the mind)

I think it was mine.

My want for some middle penetration comes from watching the Williams wrecking crew. I personally do not expect to see blowing up of every play by a fat NT, but I do expect that If I run ISO between the center and guard that that fat boy should at least be helped out on and peeled or doubled.

As a Falcons fan I used to expect to see people getting chopped all the time and no power football. I have honestly seen plays where Abe would be near triple teamed(RB,TE,T) on the outside with Grady Jackson(G,C) taking up 2 blockers and the others getting single blocked

I really just want to see a bullrush be possible where a DT can push and offensive lineman into the QB, that's all. I just want the 3-4 to mean something and not be a run liability scheme.