when is realism TOO real?

[Likwidkewl]

True enough Ian, but it could be done today (I would hope) and a simple button press could end the animation. I personally think it would add to the atmosphere. I am happy that you guys are taking the sub in and out time into account though.

Quote: Originally Posted by Ian_Cummings_EA

Pretty sure it's been like 17 years my friend - Madden '93 was the last to have it. One could argue Madden's popularity has steadily climbed since removing it.

[Segagendude]

Quote: Originally Posted by adembroski

Just wanna quickly disagree with you on something:P NFL Head Coach is the deepest franchise mode yet in a sports game. What The Show has in front office management type stuff, NFL Head Coach beats it in player and coach development and management.

I should've worded it differently------the deepest franchise in a sports game I've played.

Sorry bout that....(I've never played HC)

[zoltranite]

ok i dont know about you guys, but if you the age of 20-34, I can bet that the most fun you EVER had playing a videogame was when you got Tecmo Super Bowl for christmas. Far from being realistic, but honestly, I still go back and play... and I have heard to people that are still playing this game on the computer and updating the rosters and having dynasties over the internet... I dont know how this is being done... but man that game was the best!!!

Tecmo Super Bowl (or Super Tecmo Bowl) And Mutant League Football... two of the greatest football games ever made and they were not realistic at all.

[droopizzle34]

Quote: Originally Posted by Segagendude

^^^^Well said, Ian. (I don't want to quote that huge post, lol) I'm no pilot, but I am a Flightsim enthusiast. I still enjoy the heck out of that sim.(Since FS 2000) As for realism in video games......well, I like to play football, and run my franchise. BUT-----I couldn't do all the prep, training, scouting, filmwatching, etc like what happens in real life. That could get boring IMO. Just let me draft, sign and release players, and get me on the field ASAP. The Show's a good example-----deepest franchise yet in a sports game. It adds longevity. This is what I want Madden to do. Not make me stop playing just because the season's over and start wondering what the next installment will be like.

me too bro,me freakin' too.

[droopizzle34]

Quote: Originally Posted by Ian_Cummings_EA

It's an interesting topic...one I've actually discussed quite a bit with other designers within different EA Sports teams. In my personal opinion, we're here to create an accurate football simulation. Above all else, it still has to be "fun", but fun can also be defined on so many levels so that is much harder to quantify. Professional football is so extremely complex, with so many nuances and aspects that make it as exciting as it is in real life. We have to emulate as much as that as possible, and it's honestly an endless cycle to fully recreate it, but that's the fun in doing what we do. It's very different from an adventure or action game where you can make up the rules as you go...we have one job - re-implement what we see every week in video game form. The argument that often comes up in these realism debates is the flight sim market. Flight simulators were once quite popular, but as they got more and more real, they edged themself right out of the market and the only people that can enjoy those games now are pilots. There is concern that sports can do the same thing, but whenever I debate this I make the point that we are extremely far away from that predicament. The technology that's out there has allowed a 100% realistic flying experience. Well, maybe it's 99% or so...but regardless, the tech and engineering needed to create flying physics is a blip compared to the amount of work needed to create sports game AI, physics, etc. Well lo and behold, you create an ultra-realistic flying game, and it's no fun for anyone that doesn't appreciate the hardcore details. If they had gone the realism route while still building in some arcade-ish elements (Top Gun-style dogfights anyone?), then they might have changed their fate. If we were in the luxurious experience of being able to create 100% NFL-accurate gameplay, yeah, you could easily run the risk of missing out on fun factor because it's too realistic. But I think we've learned so much at this point in our 21 years of making games, we'd find ways to have options to turn on/off the "more real vs. less fun" items. One that comes up each year is doing realistic subs - meaning once you pick a formation, some players run off the field and others run on. If there are 5 million Madden gamers out there, I bet 4.999 million would basically hate that addition because it just adds a bunch of waiting to the experience. But we could add an option that's defaulted off for that, and do some smarter clock runoffs to emulate the real happenings of subs. At this point in the life-cycle of the game, we still have plenty of things to add and improve that IMO are "core" to the sport - blocking, momentum, tackling, physics, etc - and continuing to fine-tune these areas and make them better won't run any risk of alienating our fans or making the game less fun...IMO they will make it more fun to strategize around new aspects that haven't been there before or haven't been implemented correctly.

great post man.

[floridagatorfan]

I haven't read anything other than the first post but what I want from a sports video game is movie realism. In movies, for instance Batman Begins, the movie is clearly not realistic to everyday life but it is not over the top. It is believable and keeps you in the experience.

This is how I would like Madden to be. I don't want it to be completely realistic where it takes me 3 hours to finish a game but I want to be able to play and feel like I am watching a real football game. This is what I liked about APF is that although it had its flaws it still played a great game of football. In the past Maddens I havent gotten this feeling but after seeing what Ian has done with the game it seems to be shaping up to the level of realism I want.

[Sven Draconian]

An interesting way to look at this is the animation detail we have now. People always bring up how great the run animations and field art was on last gen, but nobody ever points out how (relatively) crappy the models look (as compared to now). They were cartoonish looking, but so was everything else. If a cartoon runs a bit weird, it isn't that noticeable. If a model that looks exactly like a human runs strangely, you can see it right away.

Which is not to say that people who clamour about running animations are wrong. They do look a bit strange (though, I don't have a huge issue myself...but to each his own).

Another interesting example is the AI in the last few years. Last year they had huge playbook additions that added a lot of very realistic passing plays into the playbook. Z-spot, drive,flood, levels and others are the exact same concepts you see on Sunday.

Unfortunately, the defensive zones and the defensive AI wasn't upgraded. Adembroski used the term backyard football in relation to defense, and that still holds true. You still have rudimentary zone logic (IE, backyard with your friends) against NFL passing concepts. Is it any great surprise when the offense takes a giant leap.

From what I understand, a very similar issue presents itself with realistic physics. You have a very basic defensive AI that gets itself way out of position and has to make up pretty quickly. Enhancing the physics makes the AI look worse and worse. A balance needs to be struck between realistic physics and a game in which the AI can also participate. Certainly the game needs more physics than the '08/'09 versions, but it is going to be a tough balance.

(APF 2k8 is a testament to the truth of this. The over-powered physics making passing the ball entirely too easy because the players can't make up for a misstep).

In essence, every step towards realism is going to have an unintended consequence. The old regime "fixed" these issues by speeding up the game and throwing in super-human animations. Obviously, this just creates more problems, but the game looked pretty. Ian and Co. are going back through and attempting to address the core issues that are broken (AI logic is one), but that isn't easy.

[green94]

Quote: Originally Posted by Ian_Cummings_EA

Pretty sure it's been like 17 years my friend - Madden '93 was the last to have it. One could argue Madden's popularity has steadily climbed since removing it.

Please add this back in with an on/off switch for Madden 11

Having subs run on and off with a dynamic sideline would take your presentation to another level!