So if I throw Pro Bowl worthy yards & TD's

[Lodeus]

So is progression based on potential more that production?

[mmorg]

Quote: Originally Posted by mikeveli20

+1. The way I believe it should work is that the things you mentioned above should progress a player's abilities, but that it won't be visual to the user until he puts up the numbers to reflect that ability. To elaborate, you could have a Tom Brady type guy drafted in the 6th round and he may be rated a 55 or something. Then through Potential, Work Ethic, Intelligence, Natural Ability, etc. he increases his ability but he's still riding the bench as your backup. Then you're 85 overall starter goes down with a season ending injury and you're forced to start your backup. Although his rating shows a 55, he actual performs like an 85 and has a great season. After the season is over, the coaching staff says to themselves, "hey this guy is more like an 85 than a 55" and therefore his rating increases. On the flip side you may never give him a chance to start and you still see him as a 55 so after a few seasons you cut him. Another team picks him up and is able to realize his ability so they start him and he puts up great numbers and then his rating as seen by the user goes up to an 85 even though he actual was that good the whole time. So to summarize, his ratings as seen by the user are reflective of how he performs, but his actual (hidden) ratings are reflective of his Potential, Work Ethic, Intelligence, Natural Ability, Coachability and the talent level of their coaches in the particular system they are in.

Right. I really want a Scout/GM aspect added to this game. You shouldn't know the true ratings of the players, you should only know the ratings for your players that your Scouts and GM have evaluated them at. This would make having good scouts and GMs important for managing your personnel in a way that allows your team to be successful. That is the main reason teams like Pittsburgh and New England have been so good in the past decade. They not only have great coaches and a great front office but they have routinely evaluated talent better than most teams in the NFL because they get great production out of their late round picks.

It sucks knowing that you drafted a bust. I want to draft a 1st round bust and see him rated an 84 and start him as a Rookie and then, after a year or two, find out he is really rated a 62 and not an 84 like my Head Scout thought he was, even though my GM told me to stay away from him and intially had him rated as a 76 with no upside.

[fcb-santana]

Progression is the point of franchise. No matter how low the rating is for any player.

Frankly, I would feel cheated if I put up Pro Bowl numbers with Rex and then not see him progress. So what if it gets easier? Aren't we trying to create dominating players?

Consistent production should supersede potential or have potential re calibrated after each season.

[mmorg]

Performance is the result of a players ratings therefore the performance of a player is equal to the ratings of said player.

If you were to have progression based on the performances of the players you would get some really far out progression trends in your franchise. Offensive linemen would constantly regress if they had bad QB's. Great running backs would regress if you had a horrible offensive line. Horrible running backs would progress if you had a great offensive line.

In real life you can hide the fact that your QB is mediocre with a great offensive line and good Wide Receivers. You can compensate for poor running backs by having great blocking schemes and great offensive linemen. Does this necessarily make the mediocre QB or poor HB any better because they put up good numbers? No, it doesn't make them better. They are just in a situation that allows them to put up numbers not indicative of their talent level because of the talent around them.

Do you see where I am getting at? A performance based progression system doesn't belong in a game like Madden anymore considering their new tagline is promoting realism.

[Biodawg03]

A couple of points I wanted to make after reading this thread:

-If a guy progresses to a point where he can match numbers put up by the greats, he may be doing that for a year or two while he is 28-32 range before his traits start to slip due to age..... that doesn't make him a HOF player.

With the system as it is a guy like Kurt Warner and Tom Brady are impossible. And a guy like Matt Cassell and Matt Hasselbeck will never become starters because they are not first round picks that come in with high ratings. Instead they excelled in a system, and Hass has become a Pro Bowl quality QB.

I think if you find a system that fits the abilities of your QB and he puts up great numbers he should get the OVR rating to match it. Typically this just means a boost in AWR and not so much in the arm strength.... Just because a guy puts up great numbers doesn't mean his Arm strength goes to 99 and all his accuracy numbers go high as well.... they progress to match his performance.

Just because a guys rating goes up doesn't mean it will have a direct correlation to numbers increase.... if a 76 throws for 3,500 yards and 20 TDs for a couple of years he should improve... those numbers would put him in the top 10 or 15 in the league.... if he goes up to an 87 OVR that doesn't mean he then throws for 4000 yards and 30+ Tds unless the talent around him improves... maybe he cuts down TOs, maybe he improves on 3rd Down, takes fewer sacks etc.

There is so much more to progression than basic stats.

And again, if you take Rex and start making Pro Bowls, unless you play him into his late 30's the guy still wouldn't be a HOF QB..... unless you promise a victory in a Super Bowl and win cause then it doesn't matter how bad your numbers are... (yeah, I'm looking at you Joe Naimath.)

[Exonerated]

Progression in M10 is fine the way it is.

[splff3000]

When I first saw this thread created I knew it was gonna come to this. This is the proverbial "which came first...the chicken or the egg" conundrum that we see every year in Madden franchise. Should performance dictate progression or should progression dictate performance? I tend to subscribe to the latter.

I'm inclined to believe that your QB making the pro bowl does not warrant progression. I think progression should be totally separate from perfomance. In real life, a player's skill progression isn't dependant on his performance. If that was the case, backups would never get good. There would be no Rich Gannons or Matt Cassels in the NFL. On the other hand, a players performance IS dependant on his skill progression. In other words, a player's skill progression directly affects his performance on the field, but his performance on the field has no bearing on his skill progression. This is the same approach, I think, Madden needs to take with their progression.

Another reason that progression should be separate from performance is the human factor. Before complaining about why Rex Grossman didn't progress, you should ask yourself..would he have made the pro bowl if a human wasn't controlling him? Most likely no. That means if he progresses, just because he went to the pro bowl, it wouldn't be showing his true progression. It would be showing his progression when he is controlled by a human. This wouldn't be fair to the other cpu players that aren't controlled by a human. Not to mention you'd start hearing people complaining about players progressing too much then.

[skudplayr]

Quote: Originally Posted by Exonerated

Progression in M10 is fine the way it is.

Considering you haven't played the game I don't see how you can make that declaration. Just like people can't make the declaration that Madden 10's progression is crap.

If they would just go to the team philosophy method like Head Coach had it would be so much easier, especially with regards to system QB's. You could draft a guy who has a cannon for an arm but questionable accuracy and/or reading defenses and fit your system around him so that your QB philosophy is "Strong Arm/Tools." With this system, you could dominate with your QB and he could have a rating in the 90's. Then, he heads to free agency and another team gobbles him up with a huge contract. Little do they know that their "Field General" QB philosophy will not work with this guy, and before they know it, he's a 75 overall and is a high price bust who never makes it with them.

That's my madden wet dream atleast haha.