Had Just About Enough of Potential Ratings

[Glorious Arc]

SMDH

Honestly...How can anyone keep bringing this up when the facts that are stacked against it prove that PBP(performance based progression) is not what happens IRL?

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Would it matter? His overall back then would have been poor anyways and would have needed a roster update to fix. You confuse roster updates and how the real world interacts with the video game. If there are players that are real(not from premade drafts) that perform they will see a ratings boost to correct that. Once you start playing a franchise, that is when the fantasy world starts. EA then basically turns into an omniscient being with the premade drafts. They know all of the Tom Bradys and Ryan Leafs before the drafts even happen. That is why they can give potential grades to these players. If this was not the case then every single rookie could turn into an overall 99 and that completely unbalances the game and is completely unreal. In the real world, no one really knows how good someone can really be until the moment of truth. Do you see the difference between RL and Madden now? For everyone that says performance=progression...I will ask you a simple question. Have you ever played a sport IRL? Heck, I will go as far as have you ever had a job? I ask this because if you think that if you step onto a baseball field and hit four home runs or if you go to work and make a really good presentation....That it means you are now a better baseball player or a better person in the office then your reason and logic are flawed. People perform better by practicing, gaining knowledge from others, and getting experience. The fruits of their labor are 4 home runs and a good presentation at work. Madden should base it's progression system on those factors...Not how well a player does in a season.

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You dont magically increase your potential. Your potential is your max ability that you will ever be able to achieve. That is why we dont see average joes making it in the NFL just because they worked extra hard or they put up good numbers. They just did not have the talent to play. Just another reason why a potential rating makes sense.

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You dont get my point. I have been stating and shown examples of players who have performed IRL above what people think they could do only because of the situation they were in. Do you think Brady's WRs from the past should have kept on progressing because they put up good numbers? No, they shouldnt because they had an amazing QB. Do you think that Dante Q.(QB) should be rated amazing because he was able to toss the ball up to Moss all the time? No he shouldnt because Moss makes any QB get 10+ TDs. Do you think Derrick Anderson should have improved because he had that one great season? No he shouldnt because he barely hit any of his WRs, they all were making outstanding catches and big plays for him making up for his poor accuracy. How about almost any of the Broncos RBs over the years that have produced well over 1000+ yards but when they went to another team they completely flopped? The Broncos zone blocking scheme allowed those RBs to produce with their talent level if they used PBP they would have become superstars in madden. but again IRL they were just average players in a perfect scheme for them. Under PBP, all of those players would have become madden superstars and IRL they are complete bums.

Quote: Originally Posted by tooldude79

besides Moss and Welker..what Pats receivers had stellar numbers? Branch put up solid ones but EA rewarded him w/ a couple years of very high ratings. Culpepper was a beast in like 05 Madden and Anderson was rewarded w/ a pretty high rating in M 09..so again i guess i dont see your point..how is that different exactly? each year's..hell, each week's, roster updates are PBP!!

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...Exactly... You are seeing the game and RL as one being. They are separate things. I will say this one more time because I am sick of repeating myself. How do you get better in sports IRL? Do you think that if I went to a baseball field and hit 4 home runs I was the next Babe Ruth just BECAUSE I hit those home runs? How about the fact that I had to spend 8 hours a day at the batting cage, training every day, listening to my coaches tips, studying the other team, and finally being blessed with some god given talent. IRL players go to training camp, they watch film, they do all of the above to get better. They get rated in Madden by how well everyone thinks they can do. My points about those players were the fact that IRL they were complete bums. They got overrated in madden and there was a roster update to fix that. But when you start franchise there is no roster update. Therefore if it is PBP players like the ones listed above will turn into superstars...and stay that way but IRL they were bums in a good situation. In madden though, When you make a player progress because he runs well then you are basically taking out what really happens IRL(training coaching studying ecdt ect) and you make everything a roster update and that is not sim. Players who are put into a good situation that produce in madden would only get better in madden but IRL they arent really getting any better and wouldnt get any better either.

Those are just a few of my posts in a progression debate with Teambuilder and others. Here is the sum of all the parts of what a real life system from Head Coach 09 could look like.

Quote: Originally Posted by TeamBuilder

I think the ultimate compromise would be having having the option to also have progression like they did in Madden 06. And I'm not sure what you mean by saying every player would reach 99 in all his stats because that never even came close to happening in Madden 06. Did you ever play it? The only thing that would really progress a lot was awareness if your team did well in the playoffs/super bowl, and if your player was young and playing well his other stats would increase to.

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In the HC system, players only decreased in their real stats if they were getting older. Their performance had little to do with their real stats like awareness, throw power, ect ect(only effected how quickly they would grow if they had a good coaching staff and ev en then a player could perform great and progress slowly with a bad caoching staff and grow quickly even if he performed poorly but under a great coaching staff). Their overall grade was determined by their performance and a variety of their other skills and the team's philosophy(cover two system, 3-4 type players ect ect) That meant if a player performed well during the season then his overall would increase and therefore the team would have to pay him more to keep him. On the other hand if he did not perform his overall would drop but either way all his real stats that matter(awareness, throw power, ect ect) would remain the same and teams could get him for somewhat less after a bad year. Because players real stats(awareness ect ect) only grow with time because of playing time, training, and coaching staffs ability, that would mean every single player would grow to have 99 in all of his stats without a potential cap system. Like many others have said, M06 was far from perfect and it was indeed seriously flawed. The only flaw about a HC like progression system is that people have to have a potential rating to prevent the league's starters from growing to 99s. Many people find that having potential is required to try and reflect the NFL. Now I ask you again. If they were to allow you do edit potential before and during a franchise...Would that be a fair compromise? Honestly, the fact that you have avoided even trying to answer it leads me to believe that all you care about is making and seeing players who put up good numbers become the next superstars in the league. This is as far from realistic as you can get with progression. I could list of dozens of players who are the best in the league that perform stat wise at a low level. If a CB is any good a QB will not throw to his side. 3-4 defensive linemen normally dont produce stats that high. Great 4-3 linemen will often get double teams all game long and put up fewer stats then others. Good Running backs with poor offensive lines. Good QBs with poor receivers. Good WRs/TEs with poor QBs. In all of those situations, players will "under perform" but for their situation they are excelling. In a PBP system any of those players would not progress at all. This does not even bring into light players who overproduce because they are in a good situation. Bad QBs who put up great numbers because of amazing WRs and plays against poor pass defenses. Bad RBs who have great offensive lines and play against poor run defenses. Bad CBs that cant cover but have good pass rush going for them and can catch. D linemen who have other great linemen on the line that get double teams leaving the bad Dline one on one to try and get the sack. In M06 all of the above players would not have progressed accordingly to how the real NFL is. The best of the best would have remained the same/digressed as scrubs and the bad players of the NFL would have become the superstars. How does that make any logical sense? It comes back down to the simple question again. Is getting rid of all the bad things from a M06 system worth making it so X player has X potential? It is about compromise. In this sense, we know that real life players are never going to be properly rated. BUT is it fair to make a system that is completely non sim and unrealistic progression system to make it so you can make any player you deem worthy a superstar. Compared to having a system that may have a COUPLE of players off on their potentials and would not be properly rated in the game but would match realistically how players IRL progress. Madden is trying to move towards a simulation direction. If they claim they are authentic to the NFL but keep a PBP system they are not only lieing but they are being hypocrites because that is as far from authentic to the NFL as you can get. As a whole this argument is at a close. You have made several threads about X player having X potential already in the game and you think it is wrong. You then say his potential should increase because he puts up good numbers. You obviously only care about a PBP system with no potential. You may say otherwise but you are describing exactly to a T a PBP system with no potential. I am finished with this debate.

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So going back to HC 09(seriously why didnt they import at least a quarter of that game to franchise is beyond me) they had the ability to hire HCs, OC, DC, positional coaches, GMs, and trainers. The GMs skill not only helped with scouting good talent but also with figuring out how good your team really is. A player's overall and potential ratings were almost always in a state of flux. With a poor GM you could have an amazing player whos overall/potential rated by the GM is in the 70s when that same player with a great GM would be rated in the 80+. The Real attributes of a player(awareness throw power ect ect) were static(unless they were increasing). Therefore, if you were not lazy you could become the GM and judge what player is going to become great or not but if you had a good GM he could speed things up. Also, each and every single player rating had a potential that it could specifically reach. Example would be a DE who has a overall potential of a 90. His stats at max would be 68 power move, 98 finesse move, 74 block shed, 78 tackle, 94 awareness. You could draft another DE whos overall potential is 90 but his max stats could be 98 power move, 52 finesse move, 88 block shed, 84 tackle, and 78 awareness. You could draft another DE whos overall potential is 90 and his stats are 90 power move, 90 finesse move, 80 block shed, 65 tackle, and 60 awareness. Players are 10 times more diverse because each one is unique in the fact that they all max out at different levels on different skills.

Excuse my tone towards Teambuilder...We were going back and forth for several hours into the early morning and I was tired.(200+ posts from everyone) The ideal system would be to have the coaching staff, training camps, practices, work ethic, and playing time all effect how quickly/well a player develops. That is how it happens IRL and is how it should happen in madden because it is logical and sim. Potential comes in to make players realistic because not every person is going to be the next Manning, Michael Jorden, or Tiger Woods no matter how much any of the above factors they have if they dont have god given talent.

[kingkilla56]

Number ratings are holding this game back. Player specific skills are what matter, not 99 juke but the ability to juke well. We get all hot and bothered when we see our favorite player with a 77 ovr. What that player should have is his skill set and thats it. No stupid number that determines if he is worth keeping around. In madden if you get a guy with 94 throw power but his overall is a 58, he is worthless. What that player should read to us is that he has a strong arm and room to grow and well keep him and see how good he gets. Basically a hidden rating system where we know the general skills of a player rather than the 97 vs 95 attribute garbage we have now is what we need.

[MiWolves]

The potential system is BS in my opinion. I've played all my game because well i want to play my games.. After 16 games on All-Madden my halfback with C potential in first season had 1821 rushing yards with 4.3 YPC then next season he had 1947 yards with 4.7 YPC and next season he got 1853 Yards with 4.4 YPC and he won MVP all 3 seasons. Its frustrating to see all your hard work go to waste due to the fact that hes CAPPED at 79. If this was real life he would be 99 overall. Shoot at least let raise awareness of the player..

[Joshua1207]

Just buy that thing in the Madden store. I did just so Alex Brink, Brandon Gibson, etc could become good.

[Richieh]

Quote: Originally Posted by MiWolves

The potential system is BS in my opinion. I've played all my game because well i want to play my games.. After 16 games on All-Madden my halfback with C potential in first season had 1821 rushing yards with 4.3 YPC then next season he had 1947 yards with 4.7 YPC and next season he got 1853 Yards with 4.4 YPC and he won MVP all 3 seasons. Its frustrating to see all your hard work go to waste due to the fact that hes CAPPED at 79. If this was real life he would be 99 overall. Shoot at least let raise awareness of the player..

I thought the aim of the game was to win matches and trophies. If you did that, how have you wasted your time?

You are confusing re-rating of players done based on real life performance which is a correction of the player's ratings, with in game progression.

We have to have a potential system, otherwise force feeding the ball creates superstars from scrubs and talented players won't progress if they don't play or put up great numbers - whilst we know in real life great QBs often have poor early seasons or even sit. M10 progresses those players, whilst old Maddens did not.

[JohnnyNutman]

Quote: Originally Posted by Richieh

I thought the aim of the game was to win matches and trophies. If you did that, how have you wasted your time? You are confusing re-rating of players done based on real life performance which is a correction of the player's ratings, with in game progression. We have to have a potential system, otherwise force feeding the ball creates superstars from scrubs and talented players won't progress if they don't play or put up great numbers - whilst we know in real life great QBs often have poor early seasons or even sit. M10 progresses those players, whilst old Maddens did not.

the problem is people compare it to what they rate real players. the madden team have to base it off what they see on game tape & on stat charts.

when it comes to players in franchise they are essentially playing god. they can chose how much "god given ability" that player can possess.

just cos u had great numbers with that player doesnt mean his ratings should improve. ever heard the term "system player"?

[MiWolves]

Quote: Originally Posted by Richieh

I thought the aim of the game was to win matches and trophies. If you did that, how have you wasted your time? You are confusing re-rating of players done based on real life performance which is a correction of the player's ratings, with in game progression. We have to have a potential system, otherwise force feeding the ball creates superstars from scrubs and talented players won't progress if they don't play or put up great numbers - whilst we know in real life great QBs often have poor early seasons or even sit. M10 progresses those players, whilst old Maddens did not.

Madden is suppose to be a football sim. I was satisfied with my wins. I would've been fine if he progressd like 2 overalls every year but he didn't progress even one point. The potential is really flawed to the point that it makes franchise mode not fun anymore. A solution which would satisfied both parties would be to take the potential system but put a cap on how much they can progress every year. Like 4-6 overal points if he wins the mvp or rushing title. Don't get me wrong I didn't like seeing my players go from 68 to 99 in one year either but at least show some progression if you had a good year.

[Richieh]

Quote: Originally Posted by MiWolves

Madden is suppose to be a football sim. I was satisfied with my wins. I would've been fine if he progressd like 2 overalls every year but he didn't progress even one point. The potential is really flawed to the point that it makes franchise mode not fun anymore. A solution which would satisfied both parties would be to take the potential system but put a cap on how much they can progress every year. Like 4-6 overal points if he wins the mvp or rushing title. Don't get me wrong I didn't like seeing my players go from 68 to 99 in one year either but at least show some progression if you had a good year.

Why though?
That is not what happens in the NFL.
A good season does not necessarily lead to a better one, which is what "rewarding" stats in Madden would suggest.