Do you feel the changes in Madden '10 were done in the interest of the "Sim" gamer?

[Flamehead]

Quote: Originally Posted by sky454

My point is clear, EA is not trying to create a true sim game experience. They are attempting to cater to both the arcade, freestyle, anything goes including cheats gamers as well as the honest sim gamer. It's a no win situation because there is no perfect compromise for both groups. EA needs to decide to either make a sim game or they need to make an arcade game. They have shown they are incapable of doing both.

Well said. The point that continually gets lost on people is that, historically speaking, Madden became the hit that it was because it was the first (and in some years, the only) football title out there whose emphasis was realism insofar as the technology would allow. Remember the story of how Madden wouldn't even put his name on the thing until the producer(s) could/would find a way to make it 11 on 11 football?

Sounds quaint now, but that was the point of emphasis from the beginning. And in time, it exploded into the hit that it was. That's why I believe it's a myth that making it more sim/realistic would turn off gamers. History shows the opposite.

Enter Madden tourneys, online, the horrendous Madden Nation TV show, etc. and the game gets co-opted by arcade, cheese mentality. Two years ago, the EA says (in some weird "badge of honor" type way) that many of their developers came from these tourneys. Suddenly the direction and strange design decisions make sense.

Enter Ian and Co. Improved the game in some areas, but the game continues to reflect a) some questionable design decisions seemingly catered to online or casual play, and b) lack of effective quality assurance testing prior to release.

(In regard to the latter, it does not bode well for us when they come back to us after release and say "well, you know, we're just going to let all the issues, you know, the 'cream of the crop' rise the top, and we'll address them then"--in effect making us paying QA testers for a beta product. But I digress).

Ironically, Madden is turning off and away the very type of gamer it was originally created for--someone wanting "realistic" football based on what the technology can do. And the casual gamers? Do you think they’ll even care? They’re CASUAL for crying out loud.

EA's NHL brand (after several years of issues) made that a point of emphasis recently, and you don't see hockey gamers going "gee guys, I'd really like to get into this, but you're not making it casual/arcade/accessible enough". If anything, they're getting praise over this choice.

[sky454]

Quote: Originally Posted by sky454

The changes made a small step in the right direction but it's just not enough. Small changes were made that were geared toward the sim gamer but there are huge problems that have yet to be addressed which leads me to believe that it is not their intention to have a game that is truely sim. What I believe is they want to create a game that has a mixture of arcade qualities and sim and it's tough to find that right balance. How long did it take for them to address manual rocket catches on offense? Seriously if receivers had to jump up in the air on every pass they would get their ribs broken and have serious concussions on those plays. It wasn't until madden 10 that they decided to address this issue. We all know that the offensive line is still dumb as rocks. Guys will take a defensive end and move him to the opposite side of the field and the offensive line doesn't react well at all to this cheat. Nano blitzes are HUGE EXPLOITS that are still not addressed. How many years has this exploit existed? EA has known about these exploits as well as others for years but chose not to address them because they are attempting to please both the arcade gamer as well as the sim gamer. There will always be people on both sides that are not always happy with EA's decisions on which exploits get addressed and which ones do not. My point is clear, EA is not trying to create a true sim game experience. They are attempting to cater to both the arcade, freestyle, anything goes including cheats gamers as well as the honest sim gamer. It's a no win situation because there is no perfect compromise for both groups. EA needs to decide to either make a sim game or they need to make an arcade game. They have shown they are incapable of doing both.

Quote: Originally Posted by Flamehead

Enter Madden tourneys, online, the horrendous Madden Nation TV show, etc. and the game gets co-opted by arcade, cheese mentality. Two years ago, the EA says (in some weird "badge of honor" type way) that many of their developers came from these tourneys. Suddenly the direction and strange design decisions make sense.

As far as the developers go thanks for your insight flamehead. I didn't even realize that the developers are tournament freestyle gamers.

If the offensive line's a.i. is still dumb as rocks after the release of patch 2 I think I'm done with madden. It's sad, I played madden since the hb toss left was the favorite play of many gamers back when the game was on sega genesis. But what you said only confirms this is definitely not meant for the true sim gamer. The developers and tournaments themselves are freestyle anything goes including cheats. That explains a lot. So whether they care or not unless they fix the a.i. of the offensive line and make a true sim game I'll stay away from this arcade game. It's likely I will join the long list of sim gamers that will never purchase this arcade game again. It's sad I never thought I would utter those words.

[KillRoy]

Everyone... define the word "simulation".

I can tell you up front, I've never played a football game that gave me 100% accurate stats. I just don't think its posible to make a game like this. Its not that developers can't make a realistic football game but it also has a lot to do with the skill of the gamer. Some people are just going to play the game better than others. The ones that can play great offense are just not going to get realistic stats no matter what the programmers do with the game.

However, the best thing to do IS to put it into the hands of the gamer and cut down on "money plays" as much as posible. Your skill at playing QB should often determine whether or not you win the game. However, playing good defense should also help you win games. But how do you do this in a video game? I've a got a lot of ideas on how to do it, which i'm sure some of you guys have already read my ideas. But one thing you could do is take an idea from the great baseball game MLB: THE SHOW.

In that game there is a feature called "guess pitch"... why not put a feature into Madden called "guess play". Like, when you're on defense, you can pull up an option to guess the offensive play and a set of plays pops up at the top of the screen ... one of them is the play the offense called and you just select the one you think the offense called. And if you guess the correct play, it causes the play to either be an interception, fumble, sack, loss in the backfield, or an incomplete pass and the defensive play you called determines that outcome.

Another thing that I think would help the game is to take out hot routes and the ability to just flip the play. I know people will disagree with this but it makes playing offense too easy.

Taking out the on field play diagram display when you're at the line of scrimmage would help. People should have to remember what the play is....

If you guys really want a more realistic game you have to make playing offense a little harder.

Ultimately, I just don't think we'll ever see a "perfect" game. Sure, there are certain things you can do to improve gameplay but the most we can ask from any game company is to implement football strategy to their best ability and I suppose Madden does a decent job at football strategy.

[PGaither84]

When the game respects true football, then we can start to worry about skill and stratagy. When you call a man coverage play and the MLB/OLB supposed to cover the RB in he flats makes a strange initial move that puts him out of position to cover the flats because of a programing error, that isn't football. That isn't stick skills or stratagy. That isn't bad play calling by the defensive player. That is not simulation. That wouldn't happen, at least consistently, in the NFL. A mistake is a mistake, things in Madden are not players making mistakes at random. these are controlled repeatable problems that can be documented and shown to EA.

Pursuit angels in Madden 10 are not realistic. This isn't even about making a perfect game anymore, it's about making a game that respects football and even older versions of Madden respected football better than madden 10 does.

For an example of an older version of madden respecting football better and having better AI than it does now, watch the following video. It shows how Madden 02 attacks the 4-3 and 3-4 defensive front differently and respects the 3-4 on a consistent basis. It can be done, it has been done, it isn't being done in next gen Madden. There is NO excuse for why we have what we have today.

[KillRoy]

Quote: Originally Posted by PGaither84

That is not simulation. That wouldn't happen, at least consistently, in the NFL.

You'd be surprised how often throwing into the flats works in football at all skill levels including the NFL. Its actually one of the most effective plays in football. Toss plays can be effective also, teams are always trying to 'turn the corner' on the other team, even in the pros, teams are always trying to do this, either with flat plays, tosses, sweeps, screens or just runs to the outside like with wildcat or stretch plays.

I don't have major problems with making flat routes and screens effective because they are in real life but I know what you mean that even a good play call doesn't stop it. That kind of sucks really. But I don't have a lot of play time with M10 on the new systems, I still play Madden on PS2 but can't a person just manually take control of the outside linebacker and stop it?

Quote:

Pursuit angels in Madden 10 are not realistic.

I've always thought the pursuit angles were screwed up in Madden, even on the ps2. But when I take a closer look at it, isn't this just a defensive cheat EA put into the game? Its just a speed burst cheat, right? It causes linebackers to move really fast and tackle your running back even if they take a poor angle towards the ball carrier. I'm quite certain its a cheat.

I suppose if this wasn't in the game you would average 2-300 yards rushing per game.

Quote:

It shows how Madden 02 attacks the 4-3 and 3-4 defensive front differently and respects the 3-4 on a consistent basis

I think the problem in regards to 3-4 (and 4-3) are tactical problems more than anything else. I talked about this the other day in here, its just another idea I have for football games, but the way they design football games is definitely wrong in my opinion. Maybe not exactly "wrong" but just not well thought out. But the way you handle 3-4 and 4-3 is like this... it should be programmed into the game to be easier to run off-tackle against the 3-4 but harder to run off-tackle against 4-3. However, it should be easier to run up the middle against 4-3 but harder to run up the middle against 3-4. It makes sense really because when the defense is in 4-3 the center blocks the middle linebacker and that creates a bubble in the middle. and when the D is in 3-4 the TE should have a slight advantage over the outside linbacker and the offensive tackle should be able to get a decent push against the defensive tackle thus creating another bubble when running off-tackle against 3-4. Therefore, its up to the guy playing defense to decide who he wants to manually take control of before the snap. For example... if the defensive guy is in the 4-3 should he control of the middle linebacker in case its a dive play or should he just call a middle linebacker blitz and take control of someone else? If this was programmed into the game it would force both players to make decisions before the snap.

[PGaither84]

Killroy, you said everything right here:

Quote:

But I don't have a lot of play time with M10 on the new systems, I still play Madden on PS2

They are two different games. it's that simple. Last gen is better than current gen.

Regarding the flats and the problem on next gen. Just under a 4min video



Regarding pursuit angles here are two videos, the first one is 7min long and the second one is short.




This is a Next gen problem Killroy. I'm not complaining because I can't stop it or something. It can be stopped with solid user play, but that isn't the point. The game itself is broken and doesn't respect football. You need to understand that. I am not someone "crying" that it is too hard to stop certain plays in madden, i am saying madden is too easy and unrealistic.

What you get playing on the PS2 is different than what we get on the PS3 and 360. Your game is better, our game is prettier. that's the difference. I traded in my X-Box, PS2, NGC and games and such to get a 360 in early 2008 and was astonished how much worse Madden was on these systems.

When you play offline you can easily go 19-0 and kill the computer because of all the exploits, AI problems and the fact the computer loves to throw pick 6's at your D.

We can talk football, we can talk Madden, but we would be talking two different things. You don't even have to understand football to abuse madden. I have a friend who is just getting into football this year and can kick the computer's rear because this game is easy and unrealistic.

[Tyrant8RDFL]

This was tricky for me to answer.

I voted yes. They did make the changes for the sim gamers in Madden 10, but the execution unfortunately was not accomplished.

I was going to vote no cause I felt they failed in the execution but that was not the question.

I know this is beating a dead horse, but this engine is the real problme for EA to accomplish a solid football title.

I predicted that Madden 10 was not going to wow the Madden gamers, and some can argue and I respect that but there are a ton of unhappy gamers with Madden 10.

I predicted that it was not the economy why madden sales were low, and that when MW2 drops it would break sales records and it did.

Anyways I feel the Madden team really did try but for some reason are reluctant to accept that this engine is the problem and what is holding them back.

They have the right attitude and care hopefully 11 can be a solid title. I'm just very skeptical with this engine.

Good Luck with 11.

[Pared]

PGaither,

Quit with the videos. This is your only warning.