Death to BOB, or, how blocking should work

[tasice]

[quote=Sven Draconian;2040616941]BOB= Big on Big (IE: Lineman on Lineman).They wouldn't pick up a blitzing linebacker, they would leave that to the running backs.

The running back should really be on check and release routes. Check the blitzers, if noone comes, you release. If somebody blitzes you pick them up.



I don't think that is totally correct. An offensive lineman's (Guard or Center) first responsibility is the A gap...since its the shortest path to the QB. There is no way a guard should leave a blitzing LB in the A gap for a RB in a 3 down lineman situation....

Its true that the backs responsibility is inside-out....but most blitzes are at least somewhat recognized and accounted for so the backs will help on the edges...outsdie the tackles...for blitzers there. Most often times when you see lineman pointing pre-snap they are not only identifying the MLB...but also identifying possible blitzers...and in the situation on the video....an immediate audible would be called to account for anyone walking in to threaten an inside gap. On running plays...the same principle applies...however most teams hardly ever run BOB blocking anymore anyway...they all zone block.

There arent any pass plays that don't use a gap blocking scheme...where each lineman is responsible for an area...the back true would account for any additional players coming thru an occupied lineman's gap...inside-out....this is the only way a RB would be "responsible" solely for a blitzing LB.

In my opinion...the pass blocking isn't up to snuff on this game...because no one in the league or even past high school blocks BOB in a pass play....for the very reason shown in the video...u have lineman standing around doing nothing...opening up gaps to pressure. And also...if you are assigned BOB...what heppens when the DLineman stunts? If that's your guy to block...you go with him...but that doesn't happen. Lineman stay put and guard thier area and wait for some one to block or otherwise help the guy next to them...

There should be no instances in Madden where a Olineman should be assigned to block a specific player....only areas...which is why nanos work...and will continue to work until they fix it...

[BezO]

I could've sworn I responded to you yesterday.

Quote: Originally Posted by Sven Draconian

I still can't think of an instance in which I saw a true trap this season. I think I saw a couple at the college level. The last NFL group to run the trap was the west-coast guys, and the WCO run game is all but extinct now.

I'm certain I've seen some traps on some goal line plays. And I remember saying to myself, "wow, a trap on the goal line?"

Quote: Originally Posted by Sven Draconian

The wildcat plays really wern't that bad, they just have the same blocking (il)logic every other play has. The "wild-cat" is just the jet/fly sweep with stretch blocking. Underneath it's just the Power and Counter (gap) blocking without a handoff so it hits a little faster and the ball carrier has a little more freedom.

You can't scramble on pass plays, and the plays develop too slowly. And I'm sure they did this to help keep it in check. There's no contain AI in Madden. And the blocking is too sticky.

Quote: Originally Posted by Sven Draconian

In my opinion they're better off excluding the flea-flicker. The reverse is fine (the mechanics are already fine). Double screen is fine. Reverse on kickoff? Pass. Sweep-option...defiantely pass.

Why exclude the flea flicker? It's as common as any trick play. And why exclude the reverse on kick-offs and sweep option? The sweep option is/was a staple of the San Diego trick bag.

The reverses is too slow and there's no contain AI on defense.

All Madden screens suck IMO.

Quote: Originally Posted by Sven Draconian

You can't put everything in the game, becaue then you have to have every defensive response and solution programmed in. The more stuff you try and put in, the more likely something isn't going to work as intended.

It already doesn't work as intended. And I feel the exact opposite. The more defensive responses you program the more players & users have to work with, and the less you have to limit the offense.

Example, there's no contain logic in Madden. None. So EVERY offensive play that attempts to get outside potentially "breaks" the defense. So that they don't break the defense, limitations have to be put on the offense and/or false adjustment have to be made with defensive programming. Run a toss & tell me if it looks anything like a toss we see on Sundays.

Quote: Originally Posted by Sven Draconian

Sure, but at what cost? The issue isn't whether this stuff should be in a perfect game, it's if things can be put into a game perfectly.

Like I said above, the game is so far from perfect now because of what's missing, not because of what's there. I think we agree that the NFL is quite dynamic. How then could it be best to limit the programming?

Quote: Originally Posted by Sven Draconian

I'd love to pick up the game and run the Wing-T, the Chiefs ran it in the 70s, Walsh had the buck-series in during the 80s. I don't even doubt that it could be added, it's gap blocking with two guards leading. I'm sure they could add that. The issue is how do you teach the defense to defend it? What are they going to key, guards? I'll influence trap and I'll influence boot. Now you have to add two more plays...that really break the mechanics already in place. What about the Rocket sweep, how are you going to teach the AI to rotates it's secondary on that motion...but not on all motions? If you teach it to rotate on all motions you are opening it for abuse. Are they going to key backs? Well, who is keying what back from what formation (both offense and defense)? How do you have them key backs, but still have it viable for other offenses? A real defense changes keys (or atleast alters them) week to week. You can't have the AI do that. A real defense can change it's coverage based on the offensive formation, people would throw a **** fit if the AI audibled your play call.

Like KB said, the same way they do IRL. Teach the AI all the reactions you can. What to do when they see a down block, pulling guard to/away, pass block, ect. An advantage the game has over real life is that the CPU knows the play call. It doesn't even have to react in real time.

As for adjustments, I'm all for automated adjustments for those that don't know the game well enough to make them. But I'm all for making my own.

The major problem with the defense is the play calling style. The pre-packaged defenses are too limiting. For example, if I want to play a 4-3 man free, there's maybe 2-3 defenses I can pick from. But then I'm stuck with the blitz they pre-packaged, the stunt, ect. Let us put together our own defenses like coaches do in real life by setting it up in tiers... front, stunts/blitzes then coverage. And tier the audibles the same way... allow us to audible just the coverage. And I'm all for coverage audibles including DBs & LBs.

[Sven Draconian]

[quote=tasice;2040622189]

Quote: Originally Posted by Sven Draconian

BOB= Big on Big (IE: Lineman on Lineman).They wouldn't pick up a blitzing linebacker, they would leave that to the running backs. The running back should really be on check and release routes. Check the blitzers, if noone comes, you release. If somebody blitzes you pick them up. I don't think that is totally correct. An offensive lineman's (Guard or Center) first responsibility is the A gap...since its the shortest path to the QB. There is no way a guard should leave a blitzing LB in the A gap for a RB in a 3 down lineman situation.... Its true that the backs responsibility is inside-out....but most blitzes are at least somewhat recognized and accounted for so the backs will help on the edges...outsdie the tackles...for blitzers there. Most often times when you see lineman pointing pre-snap they are not only identifying the MLB...but also identifying possible blitzers...and in the situation on the video....an immediate audible would be called to account for anyone walking in to threaten an inside gap. On running plays...the same principle applies...however most teams hardly ever run BOB blocking anymore anyway...they all zone block. There arent any pass plays that don't use a gap blocking scheme...where each lineman is responsible for an area...the back true would account for any additional players coming thru an occupied lineman's gap...inside-out....this is the only way a RB would be "responsible" solely for a blitzing LB. In my opinion...the pass blocking isn't up to snuff on this game...because no one in the league or even past high school blocks BOB in a pass play....for the very reason shown in the video...u have lineman standing around doing nothing...opening up gaps to pressure. And also...if you are assigned BOB...what heppens when the DLineman stunts? If that's your guy to block...you go with him...but that doesn't happen. Lineman stay put and guard thier area and wait for some one to block or otherwise help the guy next to them... There should be no instances in Madden where a Olineman should be assigned to block a specific player....only areas...which is why nanos work...and will continue to work until they fix it...

If nobody runs BOB blocking, how do you explain blocking in an empty formation? You can't area block, you are short a person, and since you are empty a back obviously isn't doing it.

How about plays were the backs release into patterns (think WCO). Again, your an area short.

BOB protection is common place in the NFL. You BOB a 5-step drop, you area a 3-step block. PA can be either, it depends on the run your faking and how the PA is targetting.

[Sven Draconian]

Quote: Originally Posted by BezO

I could've sworn I responded to you yesterday.I'm certain I've seen some traps on some goal line plays. And I remember saying to myself, "wow, a trap on the goal line?" You can't scramble on pass plays, and the plays develop too slowly. And I'm sure they did this to help keep it in check. There's no contain AI in Madden. And the blocking is too sticky. Why exclude the flea flicker? It's as common as any trick play. And why exclude the reverse on kick-offs and sweep option? The sweep option is/was a staple of the San Diego trick bag. The reverses is too slow and there's no contain AI on defense. All Madden screens suck IMO. It already doesn't work as intended. And I feel the exact opposite. The more defensive responses you program the more players & users have to work with, and the less you have to limit the offense. Example, there's no contain logic in Madden. None. So EVERY offensive play that attempts to get outside potentially "breaks" the defense. So that they don't break the defense, limitations have to be put on the offense and/or false adjustment have to be made with defensive programming. Run a toss & tell me if it looks anything like a toss we see on Sundays. Like I said above, the game is so far from perfect now because of what's missing, not because of what's there. I think we agree that the NFL is quite dynamic. How then could it be best to limit the programming? Like KB said, the same way they do IRL. Teach the AI all the reactions you can. What to do when they see a down block, pulling guard to/away, pass block, ect. An advantage the game has over real life is that the CPU knows the play call. It doesn't even have to react in real time. As for adjustments, I'm all for automated adjustments for those that don't know the game well enough to make them. But I'm all for making my own. The major problem with the defense is the play calling style. The pre-packaged defenses are too limiting. For example, if I want to play a 4-3 man free, there's maybe 2-3 defenses I can pick from. But then I'm stuck with the blitz they pre-packaged, the stunt, ect. Let us put together our own defenses like coaches do in real life by setting it up in tiers... front, stunts/blitzes then coverage. And tier the audibles the same way... allow us to audible just the coverage. And I'm all for coverage audibles including DBs & LBs.

I don't think we have the technology to have an AI that, um, intellegent. At the least, an addaptive AI like described has never appeared in any game I have seen in any genre.

That stuff would be great, without question, but I really don't think an Xbox/PS3...or even an affordable PC can play a game doing that many unique things at once.

Even if you have everything stored (assignments for the offense, potential reactions for assignments for the defense) you have a huge amount of storage....and isn't that exactly what people have complained about for years (ROBO QB, DB's that run mirror'd routes ect...) How is that even an improvement?

[Sven Draconian]

Forgot to add.

I completely disagree with your assessment that the game is far from perfect because of what's missing. The game doesn't work because the basics (Blocking concepts, coverage responsibility and run fits) don't exist.

If they produced a game with half of the plays and formations (both offensive and defensive), that functioned properly with balance it would blow the current game out of the water.

If you want more complexity, find a local high school and volunteer to coach. You can't turn a video game into real football. You can try and duplicate the basics.

[Palo20]

Quote: Originally Posted by BezO

The major problem with the defense is the play calling style. The pre-packaged defenses are too limiting. For example, if I want to play a 4-3 man free, there's maybe 2-3 defenses I can pick from. But then I'm stuck with the blitz they pre-packaged, the stunt, ect. Let us put together our own defenses like coaches do in real life by setting it up in tiers... front, stunts/blitzes then coverage. And tier the audibles the same way... allow us to audible just the coverage. And I'm all for coverage audibles including DBs & LBs.

I think Back 7 Coverage Audibles are the only way to get some kind of tiered play calling into Madden since Ian basically said it's too complicated to start the defensive playbooks over.

I find defense to be tedious at times since I feel like I've been calling the same 5 plays for the last 10 years.

[Phixius]

Quote: Originally Posted by Palo20

I think Back 7 Coverage Audibles are the only way to get some kind of tiered play calling into Madden since Ian basically said it's too complicated to start the defensive playbooks over. I find defense to be tedious at times since I feel like I've been calling the same 5 plays for the last 10 years.

If it's too complicated for them, then hire a ex-coach to do it for them. If there are defensive playbooks for each team, then why aren't they different in any way? There all pretty much the same with a few extra plays here and there. I also feel that I've been running the same plays for the past few years.

[adembroski]

Great thread. I have one argument to make.

There are a few teams... the 49ers, for example, that still do run some old power-running schemes. The 49ers run a 22 counter draw in which the backside guard leads into the hole. It's not a trap except in the sense that the guard leads into the hole, but he's usually going for a 2nd level block, not kicking out a tackle.