My take on Ratings and Sliders

[4solo]

Ratings and Sliders are two things that have been greatly debated on these forums, but IMO I feel that these are the most frustrating aspects of madden b/c they never seem to work together just right.

I don't know about most people but I really would like to have a balanced game (or difficulty level) that is truly based on ratings. Meaning if i am not controlling a player, that player should be playing the exact same way whether he is on a user controlled team or cpu team. Too many times in testing the game on default settings(on all Difficulty levels) playing with the same team( ex MIN vs MIN) i see cpu controlled Jared Allen is going beast all game and user team Jared Allen(not controlled by the user) can't even shed a block, or vice versa. But there are many aspects of the game that are not balanced like this run defense , pass coverage, oline blocking just to name a few.

So since the game is not balanced on any difficulty level this is where sliders are supposed to be tweaked in order to balance the game. To me a perfect game would not need sliders b/c the game would be tuned to where ratings are balanced properly to determine the outcome of the game. But not to open up a can of worms i know not every one plays the game the same so sliders do have their place. But i see two problems with sliders that we have now.

First why do we have sliders for HUM and CPU? I feel that sliders should go across the board. If I set WR CTH at 30 then this should affect every receiver in the game not just HUM. With the current system you have to set HUM WR CTH at one number and CPU WR CTH at another just to achieve balance, just doesn't make sense.

Second there is a redundancy issue with the current sliders b/c they tweak things that players have already been assigned attributes for. Why would there be a need to make sliders for something that already has a concrete value.

So with that being said i will suggest an alternative to the current slider set that really only involve 3 sliders. All other sliders i think should be done away with b/c players already have attributes assigned for these sliders.

QB ACC I think this was a slider that was really needed b4 the implementation of the the dif QB ACC ratings ( which i think were done very well). Now i think it is outdated. More than anything i think this slider should be replaced with QB AWR. Now I know i said it seemed redundant to make a slider for something that has an attribute assigned but throughout the years QB's have either been too dumb or Robo. With a QB AWR slider maybe users could get QB play just right.

Reaction Time (Pass and Run Defense) Honestly I think these two sliders could solve all slider problems if ratings are balanced correctly. Actually these two sliders could very well be the only sliders needed in a balanced game. Now i am aware i said that there shouldn't be HUM and CPU sliders but that's referring to the current sliders, using just these two sliders you could adjust for both HUM and CPU. Think about this, at default these sliders would let the game play according to balanced ratings but supposed on balanced your run game struggles,the solution would be turn down the CPU run D reaction time,.Your passing game is too good turn up CPU Pass D reaction time. And if you are dominating on D just turn your reaction times down.

So just by adjusting reaction time you don't change the abilities of players just how fast or slow they make plays. So for example a 50 rated D-lineman won't shed blocks any faster but LBs and Safeties would react to the run play faster but whether or not they make tackles is still determined by ratings. So i guess in a sense it would be like raising players AWR and not there skill set.

What do u guys think? This is just a suggestion so feel free to add to it or rip it up. Would love to hear your feedback.

[KBLover]

I partly agree - though I wonder what you would set all the other sliders to? 0? 50? Something else?

I also wonder how you'd accommodate engine "shortcomings" like the bad blocking AI on the O-Line, How to get the user DL to pass rush as well as the CPU line seems to, etc.

I think half the problem with ratings and sliders is the engine's shortcomings.

I try to set sliders to get the engine "out of the way" so the ratings can let the players put up realistic stats for their rating level. Of course, I'm still tweaking and working like everyone else, but that's my goal.

[4solo]

Quote: Originally Posted by KBLover

I partly agree - though I wonder what you would set all the other sliders to? 0? 50? Something else? .

There wouldn't be other sliders that is what the attributes should be for. It should already be programmed in the game that a player with 99 CTH should only drop a small percentage of passes as opposed to a player with 75 CTH who should drop a higher percentage of passes no matter if the player is CPU or HUM controlled. With the current system i have to tweak sliders just to achieve this b/c on default settings it won't happen that way.

And as for the engine and faulty AI thats for a whole another thread lol but if the game was balanced u could still determine how a player would perform within the limitations of the AI

[KBLover]

Quote: Originally Posted by 4solo

There wouldn't be other sliders that is what the attributes should be for. It should already be programmed in the game that a player with 99 CTH should only drop a small percentage of passes as opposed to a player with 75 CTH who should drop a higher percentage of passes no matter if the player is CPU or HUM controlled. With the current system i have to tweak sliders just to achieve this b/c on default settings it won't happen that way.

My next question, then, would be why do we need even those three sliders you would keep?

If in the game the ratings were able to produce good, realistic results simply by how they match up, etc, would we need any sliders at all, at least for creating a modern-day NFL-style league? (if you wanted to re-live older eras [edit: had it as ERAs...lol...sorry baseball on the brain now] or such, then you'd need something to tweak the production, but out of the box, you'd get a 2000's level of performance)

I know you mentioned QB Acc as being able to make the QBs smart enough/accurate enough to play well without robo, but if the ratings worked so that an average accuracy would be an average completion rate (or better, in the average range a pass was off target by - which would be hard to figure it would seem), would we need QB Acc?

Same for reaction times - if PUR, AWR, and PRC worked to get LBs to chase-and-tackle and attack, and the ZCV/MCV worked to make coverage work well and LBs get their tackles and DBs are as they should be, would we still need reaction time sliders?

At this point it sounds like the sliders would either be just for difficulty sake (and then - is it still simulating the NFL?) or for creating different eras.

Then again, if everything worked as per their abilities, would we even need the concept of "difficulty"? Difficulty would be set via your team/players and what your opposition has? Lions vs Browns - okay, you stand a chance. Lions vs Saints...good luck. That sort of thing?

[DoubleIt5]

Quote:

Then again, if everything worked as per their abilities, would we even need the concept of "difficulty"? Difficulty would be set via your team/players and what your opposition has? Lions vs Browns - okay, you stand a chance. Lions vs Saints...good luck. That sort of thing?

This is what makes Madden so complex. As great as it would be to have ratings mean everything, in Madden there are variables. Stick skills comes to mind first. With ratings meaning everything, why play? If the on paper numbers equate exactly into how the game plays, then you already know who will win. Plus you need to keep in mind the "any given Sunday" paradigm. I think we all have ideas that are good but don't know how difficult it would be to accomplish.

[4solo]

KBLover I said that the perfect game would not even need to have sliders IMO, just base it on attributes. But for the sake of not opening the back and forth argument that DoubleIt5 brought up I also said that the game could probably get by with just having Pass and Run Defense Reaction Time Sliders, to compensate for good or bad stick skills, if the attributes were balanced.

[jbrew2411]

I agree 100% with you guys but the sliders are there for the kids. The ones that have no skills, like to win every game, and score 100 points +. It sucks for the true games that want a true sim style game. I hate having to find the right sliders to make the game fun. I have given up and just play on My Skill when I play the game. Which is not much since it has become way to easy. I wish the ratings meant more then they do. I can take Mike Vick who has all 60's in acc and turn him into the best QB in the league. I complete 75% of my passes and pass for 300 yds + a game with him. This should never happen. I should not have to change sliders to make the game more of a challange for me. A default settings should give us true sim football but that is not what sales units. We at OS are a small few that enjoy this style of play.

[KBLover]

Quote: Originally Posted by DoubleIt5

This is what makes Madden so complex. As great as it would be to have ratings mean everything, in Madden there are variables. Stick skills comes to mind first. With ratings meaning everything, why play? If the on paper numbers equate exactly into how the game plays, then you already know who will win. Plus you need to keep in mind the "any given Sunday" paradigm. I think we all have ideas that are good but don't know how difficult it would be to accomplish.

If the Lions and Saints played each other 16 times, how many times would you expect the Lions to win? 2? 3? 6 if lucky? That's what the ratings would simulate.

Those 2 or 3 or even 6 would be the "any given Sunday" thing (which, while true, there's a reason top teams tend to be on top over years, much less in a season, likewise for the dredges of the league) and also, ratings, especially in Madden, dictate probabilities of events happening. If an event happens 10% of the time, doesn't mean it CAN'T happen, but when it does, it's rare - and if all those events lead to a team winning 80% of the time, 80% isn't 100%, so you don't know who will win, but you can have expectations, favorites, and then the occasional upset - just like real life.

As far as stick skills - whose to say ratings couldn't accomodate that? For example, low AWR might make you have to hit the button earlier (QB with a slow release or hesitates to make the throw), lower QB Acc ratings would make ball placement harder, HB moves would be easier/harder to pull off based on the back's rating for that move. In fact, Madden seems to be trying to go in that direction - it just didn't go far enough, imo. Backs should have different styles and it should be hard to go against that style. I shouldn't be trucking people regularly with CJ, stick skills or no, while using his Juke should be much easier.

Ratings are simply player skills and player skills are what would make the Saints kill the Lions more often than not. Player skills are why the Ravens ran it down the throat of the Raiders in the second half of week 16 (Raiders can't stop the run and Ravens did nothing but run), so the ratings should reflect those things FIRST - THEN you can consider stick skills.

Madden has it backwards, imo. It considers stick skills first, and then maybe the ratings can still have an impact. Maybe.