Big SIM Project - Need Help from EA!!!

[TNT713]

Sup guys,

I've been a member of OS for quite some time, but rarely post because a lot of us don't quite see eye to eye on style of play. Fortunately, I want to change the perception of the blurred line between SIM and Freestyle in a meaningful way.

So I am working on a project. I'm not at liberty as of yet to say WHAT the project is publicly yet, but I think it will do much to mend the gap between how and why we perceived something as SIM or non-SIM. But I am at a point where I've completed a large enough portion to present a preliminary to someone at EA to review and offer feedback (off the record of course) as well as other SIM football fans that want Madden to improve in it's duplication of NFL techniques.

Thanks in advance for your help!

Later

[sois]

To be honest, I don't think this can be fixed without restrictions on what you do as a player. For example, you can never simulate the dynamic of what a NFL head coach actually risks by going for it on 4th and 2 and not making it.

In Madden (or any other sports game), if you fail, oh well, you play another game in a few minutes. In real life, people get fired. Lot's of risk in involved in playcalling. I don't think you can ever duplicate this in a game.

There has to be some kind of "fair play" tool in a game to create a mechanic that takes that risk factor into account.

[TNT713]

Quote: Originally Posted by sois

To be honest, I don't think this can be fixed without restrictions on what you do as a player. For example, you can never simulate the dynamic of what a NFL head coach actually risks by going for it on 4th and 2 and not making it. In Madden (or any other sports game), if you fail, oh well, you play another game in a few minutes. In real life, people get fired. Lot's of risk in involved in playcalling. I don't think you can ever duplicate this in a game. There has to be some kind of "fair play" tool in a game to create a mechanic that takes that risk factor into account.

Good post. Fortunately, the scope of my project doesn't venture into the risk/reward value of coaching decisions. But since you brought it up

Simulating what happens AFTER a game when a coach makes a bad decision isn't really within the scope of online play. In a "1-game for it all" situation, you have to consider each online game to be similar to a playoff atmosphere. When a team is facing a one-and-done scenario, they are a lot more likely to make decisions similar to the ones online players sometimes make.

While I see your point, I disagree that EA should weight the odds in favor of either team/player. 4th down is a gamble for the offense and I believe it's well within a player's right to take that gamble without interference from developers seeking to influence the decision.

Where we probably agree most is in the behavior of players that fail on 4th down. In real life, failing on 4th means you must finish the game while accepting the responsibility for the failure. In online play people fail on 4th, quit, and they are in another game in less than 2 minutes. I personally have no problems with people that go for it on 4th down, frustrating as it can sometimes be. I only have problems with the ones that don't finish after failing.

But back to the project... I think it will change what we consider SIM because of the approach.

Later

[sois]

Quote: Originally Posted by TNT713

Simulating what happens AFTER a game when a coach makes a bad decision isn't really within the scope of online play.

The thing is though, that looming consequence HAS to be on the coaches mind when making that call on the field. Madden will never have that kind of pressure. SIM for many deals with playcalling and style. What we are talking about here is the playcalling. Fairplay was a good tool to simulate pressures a coach faces DURING the game.

Good luck with this project, it sounds awesome.

[tlc12576]

Quote: Originally Posted by TNT713

Sup guys, I've been a member of OS for quite some time, but rarely post because a lot of us don't quite see eye to eye on style of play. Fortunately, I want to change the perception of the blurred line between SIM and Freestyle in a meaningful way. So I am working on a project. I'm not at liberty as of yet to say WHAT the project is publicly yet, but I think it will do much to mend the gap between how and why we perceived something as SIM or non-SIM. But I am at a point where I've completed a large enough portion to present a preliminary to someone at EA to review and offer feedback (off the record of course) as well as other SIM football fans that want Madden to improve in it's duplication of NFL techniques. Thanks in advance for your help! Later

Im a little confused.This thread is for EA to ask you more about your project or sim gamers to ask about your project?

I consider myself to be a sim gamer and Im interested in any idea a person has on making Madden games more sim.You are being overly vague,IMO and I would appreciate some clarification if possible.

[moneal2001]

Quote: Originally Posted by sois

The thing is though, that looming consequence HAS to be on the coaches mind when making that call on the field. Madden will never have that kind of pressure. SIM for many deals with playcalling and style. What we are talking about here is the playcalling. Fairplay was a good tool to simulate pressures a coach faces DURING the game. Good luck with this project, it sounds awesome.

The looming consequence is the loss of the field position or possibility of points. In both the coaches minds and the players minds. This is the same for both. Going for it on 4th down is the pressure in and of itself. You fail you lose the ball. You succeed you get to keep it.

Playcalling and style for the AI are the problem for the sim player, not players online. If you want sim online play someone you know, or someone that you know is a credible sim player. You can't force someone to follow your rules of how playcalling should be. That is the strategy and gambling part of the game.

[CreatineKasey]

I'm interested in reading what you've got, TNT. You are right about some things considered not sim actually being that. I've read some of what you've written over the years and bet you'll have some pretty good arguments.

A lot should change for the better in M11 given the locomotion overhaul. Players shouldn't be able to fly around without some responsibility to physics.

[TNT713]

Quote: Originally Posted by tlc12576

Im a little confused.This thread is for EA to ask you more about your project or sim gamers to ask about your project?

Kinda both... I would like for someone at EA to review it, but I'm also going to need assistance with diagrams, art, and maybe licensing...

If you have questions, feel free to ask them. I may be at liberty to answer without being too exposed in the forums. Even if I can't answer, your question may give me another thing to think about as I continue working on the project.

Quote: Originally Posted by tlc12576

I consider myself to be a sim gamer and Im interested in any idea a person has on making Madden games more sim.You are being overly vague,IMO and I would appreciate some clarification if possible.

Sorry about being so vague, but it's kinda necessary. It's still early in the development stages of the project, and I've seen several ideas I've shared turn into someone else's project. But some clarification is in order, so I'll give you the drive behind the project:

Over the past 9 years, I've seen as many ideas about what constitutes SIM play as I have Madden players. 4 years ago, I wrote college paper about the 'SIM' movement began and where it fails gamers by doing a side-by-side comparison of what I consider the starting point for a simulation: The RULES.

In the paper I compare 1 set of rules from the NFL, a SIM website, a major tournament, a SIM league, a tourney style league. Each set of rules was compared on 39 points of legality. Every item was pass/fail. Each standard was then scored for it's SIM-ness. I found that the 2 SIM set of rules least reflected the rules of the NFL (less than 50% SIM), but was surprised to see the major tournament rules didn't fare much better (not even 80% SIM). Only one came close to mirroring NFL rules (90+ %).

Since then I've been looking for a way to demonstrate how the basis of SIM play is being espoused by neither SIM nor Freestyle players and to provide a method we can all agree on to come to define objectively what SIM really using sources OUTSIDE of the Madden communities.

My goal is to present my findings in a format that details the real essence of SIM by breaking down the game into a format that SIM and Freestyle players can finally agree on as a SET STANDARD, thus leaving opinion about SIM purely in the subjective category.

It's still vague, but it's probably a little more clear than it was.

Basically, it will be the only 100% SIM, sim guide for Madden that every Madden player can use.



Later