SIM vs. Non-SIM - What are the factors?

[PGaither84]

Quote: Originally Posted by Only1LT

Dare I say this ^?

Dare I agree with this ^?

[TNT713]

Thanks for responding fellas...

What I'm trying to get at is a bird's eye sense of what the REAL issues are in determining the differences between the two play styles. Over the years, I've seen a lot of 'cough syrup' fix suggesstions for an emphesymalike disease (QB Vision being the worst). Instead of guessing, I'd like to address ALL the core issues instead of the symptoms. For example:

I recently discovered that the phenomenon we call suction blocking is NOT a blocking issue. It's a defensive reaction issue. Defenders in Madden don't fight to get an arm free when they are engaged. They are always either engaged with two hands, or they have both arms free. Even though a defender may engage and fight across the offensive lineman's nose, he'll NEVER reach for a ball carrier running right past him. He has to completely discard the blocker first... THIS SHOULD BE FIXED. Having defenders reach would cure the phenomenon of suction blocking because blocked linemen would react like they are fighting through blocks to get to the ball carrier.

Some of the calls to redo the engine would NOT cure this ailment. Reaching defenders would need to be implemented into whatever engine Madden has... Even a new one. Failing to address this (or any) issue properly, from a fundamental football perspective, will simply prolong the angst people feel toward the game.

Back to the point... From the looks of it, the edge of SIM is the point where the AI doesn't do something we expect it to, or does something unexpected. Which brings me to more questions.

a) How much of recognizing a play after it's run several times, a screen for example, is the AI responsible for?
b) How much is the player calling the plays responsible for?

For the purposes of understanding my view, I believe that I should do what most of you believe the AI should. Whether it's recognizing screen passes or blocking A-Gap blitzes, it's my responsibility. IMO, EA's job is to give us the proper tools to get the job done and I think for the most part, they have. From what I've gathered over the past 7 years, this is the heart of the differences between SIM players and Tourney players. Guys that glitch are a different issue altogether.

That being said, I'm looking forward to hearing more of your opinions on the issue. Thanks again for the guys that have already responded.

Later

[Matt Diesel]

Quote: Originally Posted by BezO

It is impossible to play Madden sim. The AI/animations don't support it.

/thread

[splff3000]

Quote: Originally Posted by BezO

It is impossible to play Madden sim. The AI/animations don't support it.

Exactly!! This is a blog I wrote a while ago.

Quote:

What is Sim? Posted on September 4, 2009 at 10:51 AM. Lately, I've been seeing the word "sim" used for just about everything in football videogames. From the type of game speed you use to the type of plays you call. Now, I've been playing football video games since I was a kid and I don't remember the word sim being so rampant back then. I'm pretty sure most consider those old games, such as Tecmo Bowl, as arcade or not sim. To be sim is the new thing that started with the PS2, but are you really sim? The first thing we need to do is understand what a simulation(sim) is.....literally. The definition of simulation, according to Merriam Webster's dictionary: "the act or process of simulating." To be more specific, according to wikipedia, "Simulation games, as opposed to other genres of video and computer games, represent or simulate an environment accurately. Moreover, they represent the interactions between the playable characters and the environment realistically. These kinds of games are usually more complex in terms of game play." According to these 2 definitions, especially the "represent the interactions between the playable characters and the environment realistically" part, neither Madden nor NCAA football are simulations. So now the question comes, how can you play sim in a game that's not a simulation? For example, some may say that going for it on 4th down makes you an unsim player or cheeser. Well, what happens if more coaches start thinking like this coach here: http://highschool.rivals.com/content.asp?CID=892888 Those people punting on 4th down will become the cheeser or unsim player. Also, who's really to blame here? Is it the player on offense's fault for going for it on 4th down or is it the player on defense's fault for not stopping it? It's neither players fault because even if the defensive player picks the right play, he still may not stop the offensive players play and vice versa. This is not a simulation. You can't play sim. Just because you kick field goals and punt on 4th down doesn't make you a sim player. Speaking of going for it on 4th down, have you ever seen a USC game? Those guys are the biggest cheesers on the planet, especially when they're playing an inferior opponent. Sometimes, I'll see someone complaining about his opponent rolling his QB out of the pocket too much or there opponent called the same insert number here plays over and over. Why does that make him a cheeser or unsim? Could that happen in real life? Yes it could. Just because those things haven't happened yet doesn't mean it couldn't happen. There's never been a 99yd TD pass on the last play of the game to win it, but it could happen. Would that be cheese as well? Remember this is not a simulation. Just because something works against/for an offense/defense in real life doesn't mean it will work the same way on the game. I'm willing to bet less than 50% of the people that buy these games go into practice mode and practice offensive and defensive plays. I do it every year because I usually play with the Raiders so I have to and they're close enough that my practice in one affects my skills in the other as well. I can honestly say that, most of the time, I don't have a problem when people do the above mentioned things. It makes it easier for me to key in on what they are doing. That tells me that people don't know there playbook. So since they can't stop a guys insert number here offensive plays or move the ball against a guys insert number here defensive plays, he wants to say his opponent is unsim. I got news for you, we're all unsim. If you've ever threw a pass in Madden or NCAA, you're unsim. The wind doesn't affect the ball and the trajectory isn't 100% accurate. If you've ever run the ball in Madden or NCAA, you're unsim. The blockers don't block according to their assignments. Hell, I don't think they even have assignments. Soon as your video game player steps on the field in madden or NCAA, you're unsim. The field's length and width is not accurately proportioned to the player models. In fact, soon as you hold the ball you're unsim. The ball is not accurately proportioned to the players hand. I could go on and on, but I'm not. So tell me this, why is the guy that calls the same play over and over considered an unsim player, when that could actually happen in real life, but the guy that throws the ball without the wind affecting his pass, which would never happen in real life, is not considered an unsim player. There's a double standard there. You see, you can't be sim, if you're not in a simulation. Now you could say you're less unsim or more sim like, but no one that plays both of these games is sim. By the way, contrary to what you may think after reading this blog, I am one of the most sim like players you'll ever play. Just so you know.

Basically, you can't play sim, if the game isn't designed to be a simulation and we all know that Madden isn't designed to be a simulation.

[NEOPARADIGM]

I really don't consider this all that complex. You're "sim" if you make a conscious effort to call and execute plays that you would if you were a real coach on the sidelines - where your goal is to maximize TOP, play solid defense, establish the running game, set up play-action, win games 20-13, etc.; you're "non-sim" if you play the game like it's the football equivalent of NBA Jam or whatever, where huge plays and sheer fun takes precedence over schematics and strategy, and where winning 77-56 is every bit as enjoyable as a "realistic" game.

[TNT713]

Quote: Originally Posted by NEOPARADIGM

I really don't consider this all that complex. You're "sim" if you make a conscious effort to call and execute plays that you would if you were a real coach on the sidelines - where your goal is to maximize TOP, play solid defense, establish the running game, set up play-action, win games 20-13, etc.; you're "non-sim" if you play the game like it's the football equivalent of NBA Jam or whatever, where huge plays and sheer fun takes precedence over schematics and strategy, and where winning 77-56 is every bit as enjoyable as a "realistic" game.

If only it were that simple. But I'm glad you made this point. I have a situation I'd like to get your opinion on:

I have a good friend that I played Madden against for years... I basically taught him how to play, but back when I started 'teaching' him, he was the only guy I could beat. Anyway fast forward 15 years and he's TREMENDOUS on offense, but his defense is suspect. Whether he runs or passes, he wants to score on every play. He looks for the home run first, then settles for something else if it's not there. He doesn't care about TOP, he only wants to get up on you to force you to be one dimensional. Is he considered SIM?

Some say NO because he's looking to score every play, but his philosophy and style of play come directly from his strengths. He's a really good vertical passer, has good pocket presence, and read defenses quickly... His problem is defensively, he guesses. He has trouble stopping folks, which in turn puts more pressure on him to score.

I've seen him beat someone 147-3... But only because the guy kept giving up the home run shot, and he kept taking it. I personally don't think he's NON-SIM in his approach, nor his game play. He will play closer to the idea of SIM, but the defense must simulate a stop. If you take away what he wants, he's more SIM. If you don't, he'll play Madden like it's pinball.

Which brings me back to a question I just asked...

What is our responsibility in the effort for SIM play?

Discuss...

Later

[PGaither84]

TNT, the thing you appear to be forgetting when posting is that this is a computer program, not actual football, meaning, suction blocking is suction blocking, when a pulling guard turns away at the last second to block someone behind you instead of the defender in front of you, that is a targeting issue, and when a defender runs your route ahead of you in man coverage it is because the computer does in fact know your route. These are programming issues, these are animation issues, these are AI issues. These are not football issues. When you stop looking at madden through the eyes of a football video game and start to look through them through the eyes of a computer program with faults, you will understand a lot more about what is sim and what isn't. the frustration comes when you can do something like they do in the real NFL, but you can't counter it like they do in the real nfl. Also, players/plays are not "governed" by the same "rules" that they are in real life.

Some of these issues are finally being addressed, some aren't. We just have to wait and see. After all, EA is the only company that can make an NFL football game.

[NEOPARADIGM]

Quote: Originally Posted by TNT713

If only it were that simple. But I'm glad you made this point. I have a situation I'd like to get your opinion on ....

I can definitely see what you're driving at, and yeah, I think that's on him insofar as along with playing sim comes certain "unwritten rules" of football such as not passing with a big lead, killing an entire quarter on one offensive possession (if possible), etc. If you're fortunate enough to take a 55-3 halftime lead, for instance, the true "sim" approach is to win that game 55-10 or 55-17, ending the game as fast as possible, not scoring 120 points and embarrassing your opponent.

My stance is that playing sim is more of an attitude than it is any specific strategic approach. It's less about which plays you call or whether you punt on 4th down as it is about not being an a-hole about things and playing a straight-up game, where the mental focus is squarely on real-life football (hence "sim") and not "it's-a-videogame-have-fun-be-silly-who cares" (hence "non-sim").