Looks like Progression is pre determined

[Gosens6]

Jono and cubsball .... Couldn't have said it better myself. Thank you

[cubsball899]

i'm going to try to keep this brief because its off topic, but its on my brain right now because of this discussion. i've read in other posts detailing how madden should drop the overall rating and instead put in place a Value rating. its kind of like.. when an NFL team is drafting a player they think has high potential they see his 40 time and vertical jump and combine numbers, basically potential = athletic ability. so when a team drafts a guy they want to mold they say okay, he's very fast and can jump high, and we think we can teach him how to catch, or, he's quick as lightning with great size and strength, we think we can teach him how to beat offensive tackles consistantly. so therefore the team drafts him because he has high VALUE to that team.

currently wes welker has high VALUE to the patriots. he's not super fast, he can't jump real well and he's not the biggest guy in the world. be the guy is smart, runs routes like a demon and has good hands. he has great VALUE playing alongside randy moss because he is everything randy moss isn't. like i said before welker wouldn't be nearly as valuable to my bears.

the other example is of matt cassell. he had great VALUE to the patriots because brady went down and cassell already knew the system, and the coaches had confidence in him and he excelled in that system. fast forward and now he has been struggling with the chiefs (for multiple reasons) but the fact is that after his year with the patriots he had extremely high VALUE to the teams around the league, but lesser VALUE to the patriots because brady would be back.

teams would make trades and sign contracts based on perceived VALUE rather than a set in stone overall, among other things allowing for system players (more prevalent in college but nonetheless you see them in the NFL)

[Johnny "Too Tall"]

Quote: Originally Posted by splff3000

Ok, I'll give you guys the progression thing because, like I said before, I don't look at the other teams. I just look at mine and how mine progresses. I don't have enough proof to say otherwise for the cpu teams. I will not give up on this potential thing. I don't understand what you guys are missing. It's A Cap!!!!!!!!!!! What is so hard to understand about that. EVERY HUMAN BEING HAS A CAP ON THEIR PHYSICAL TALENT. I can't turn into Michael Jordan just because i practice a lot. It's beyond my physical abilities. That's all potential is. The cap on a player's physical abilities. NO ONE CAN PLAY BEYOND THEIR PHYSICAL ABILITIES...........NO ONE!!!!!!!!!!!! I don't know what's so hard to understand.

I think these guys have pretty much smashed your argument. Not much else needs to be said, its pretty easy to understand.

Hate to say this to a fellow Hampton roads resident but your dead wrong.

I hope you pay some attention to the others teams. What the relevance of what your team is doing and how your players are performing and progressing if you have no clue whats going on with the other 31 teams? I don't know how that would be fun, but hey.... to each their own.

[sois]

Quote: Originally Posted by splff3000

NO ONE CAN PLAY BEYOND THEIR PHYSICAL ABILITIES...........NO ONE!!!!!!!!!!!!

Yet you can rush for 2,000 yards with a speed back, regardless of potential.

[lilgame06]

Quote: Originally Posted by Jono078

How can you not look at the other teams? When you go to free agency do you just look at re-signing players? Don't you look at what talent is out there and think I should sign this guy cause he has huge upside to him? Someone mentioned Miles Austin. Let's say Sidney Rice too. In the first roster when the game came out I believe he was low 70s or just under 70. The way I want progression to be is like how we get roster updates. Why did Sidney Rice get bumped from a 70 or so OVR to 88 by the end of the season in the roster updates? It's because he was up there with the top receptions, yards and touchdowns. Which goes against your 'if I get 2500 rushing yards he doesnt need to be improved cause he's already good' at a 69 OVR!

This is a fantastic example. I don't believe Madden 09 had pre-determined ratings because in madden 09, Sidney Rice was a young receiver with a very low rating. But years and years later into a franchise i played, i came across him as a free agent and he was rated in the 90's, he just wanted too much money from the team that let him go and i was able to play him that money.

In madden 10, before he was updated in the roster update as a superstar wide receiver, i had him in a franchise as my number 2 receiver. I'm five years into the franchise, and at the age of 27, he has yet to surpass 79 OVR, despite putting up 1,000 yard seasons. That makes no sense...and it made madden's franchise mode very disappointing for me this season. If the point of roster updates is to adjust players ratings based on how they're performing in real life, then why doesn't that apply to franchise mode as well? those guys at EA had no idea that Sidney Rice was gonna have the season he did and become one of the rising superstar receivers in the NFL. Yet they capped him in franchise mode with crappy potential and the inability to barely get over the 80 overall mark? WTF?

I do appreciate that in offline franchise, you can come across a couple of late round gems here and there...but it isn't possible in online franchise because all the players are pre-determined in these pre-made draft classes...so there are no steals to come by. but i guess the draft class argument is for another thread.

anywho, completely agree with the quoted poster and the others who spoke on his argument. this pre-determined progression and potential has dumbed down franchise mode tremendously. in madden 09, i played one franchise for almost 20 seasons. in madden 10, ive only reached 5 seasons in online franchise, 3 seasons in offline.

i posted this thread on donny moore's twitter. 9 times out of 10, im gonna assume he may ignore it...but at least i can say i tried to help out our game. maybe if some others post this thread on his twitter, he'll at least take a look at it.

[Theyhateme459]

Quote: Originally Posted by Gosens6

Because those scub QB's drafted in the lower rounds CAN become stud QB's,Tom Brady says hello. Just like QB's drafted in the top 10 can become busts, Ryan Leaf and JaMarcus Russel also wave hi. All i'm saying is things like overall effects other things like contracts in Madden. If Peyton Manning is injured for the season and I take his 71 overall backup QB, put up an MVP season he SHOULD get a huge contract in the off-season, but, that's not possible in Madden because he WON'T progress if his potential is already maxed. For example, Matt Cassel. In Madden it's like GM's know that it was just a fluke season, so of course he goes back to his backup job behind Peyton with his mediocre contract when he should in turn be starting for another team because GM's would be drooling over the type of season he put up. Players play past there so called "potential". What is potential even? What qualifies people to determine how good a player will be? If you're playing in the NFL of course you have some sort of "potential" but of course you can play past it. If anything potential should fluctuate based on playing stats. No matter how people try to spin it, progression is NEEDED like it was in the PS2 days. Going back to my past example I was playing Madden 07 the other day and Manning went down with injury, Sorgi comes in and puts up a HUGE season, obviously a product of the system. The point i'm trying to make is his overall SHOT up tremendously, and he got a huge contract in the off-season with the Browns and became their starting QB. That's how it happens in real life and if that was an actual real life season Sorgis overall would have been in the 80's in Madden. Pre-determined progression is awful and adds no re playability to the franchise mode.

I guess everyone wants different things. For me the perfect system is one that is pre determined, but fluctuates on that curve depending on performance. Example, let's say a player drafted in the middle round is an 65 overall with a c potential. If things go normal for the player in 4 years he will peak at 82 before starting to decline. Now let's say the player can curve can change x% for performance. So if he plays exceptional maybe his peak was increased to an 87, and with horrible play an 77. For me that's the best route...

What your describing is pure performance base progression. If madden had this I would not purchase this game at all. That would mean that drafts and players would not matter that much. Because if I abused the computer AI I could turn ANY QB into a 99 after a few seasons of pro bowl numbers. Then whats the point of the draft? There would be no such thing as bust, studs, or sleepers because I will control their progression. I don't want to be able to turn any Jim Sorgi or whatever back-up into Peyton Manning just because I can exploit the AI and rack up stats.

Like the other poster was saying players usually have a ceiling they can reach. In real life no one knows what this ceiling is, but for video game purpose Madden has to take a guess. You allow some players with low overall ratings to have high potential so he can be like Tom Brady.... I like everyone else wish that the potential rating would be hidden. This is not something coaches and GM know before hand, this is something they find out after having them on the roster for years.

[Cantgetright69]

Well if madden is struggling to get the gameplay right what makes you think they can get franchise mode right when thats not even their biggest market.

People have got to stop asking and demanding so much for franchise mode because that isn't EA sports specialty. They struggle with getting the gameplay right and peoples expectations for franchise mode should be very low indeed. Madden hasn't been good this generation and has not improved much as far as being a good game.

So if you want average gameplay and below average franchise mode then keep buying madden..not cause you want to but because you have no choice.

I'm definitely done with this game and moving over to ncaa 11 which will be way better. They dont have those pre made draft classes and their dynasty mode is way better than what madden tries to do.

[splff3000]

Quote: Originally Posted by Jono078

Dude, you're almost going a whole different discussion. I'm not saying if Pat Williams tries to improve his speed enough he'll be greater than Usain Bolt! How can you not look at the other teams? When you go to free agency do you just look at re-signing players? Don't you look at what talent is out there and think I should sign this guy cause he has huge upside to him? Someone mentioned Miles Austin. Let's say Sidney Rice too. In the first roster when the game came out I believe he was low 70s or just under 70. The way I want progression to be is like how we get roster updates. Why did Sidney Rice get bumped from a 70 or so OVR to 88 by the end of the season in the roster updates? It's because he was up there with the top receptions, yards and touchdowns. Which goes against your 'if I get 2500 rushing yards he doesnt need to be improved cause he's already good' at a 69 OVR!

Yeah, I look at free agency. I don't have to look at other teams to see a player in free agency and FYI, they don't show a player's potential in free agency. They don't show it until after you sign him. I look to see which player best fits what I'm trying to do and if I can sign him, I do. I have no idea what this has to do with me looking at other teams.

The basic point of everything is this. I play MY game differently than you other guys. If you want to go to every team and control everything and worry about every team. That's fine for you. Go right ahead. I'm not doing it. I could careless if Matt Ryan progress 7 points everytime you sim a season. The only time I'll worry about Matt Ryan is when I'm about to play him. Besides, I've already conceded that I didn't know about progression when you sim a game. All I can tell you is if players progress the same everytime you SIM the game then play them all or don't worry about other teams, like I do. You'll save yourself a lot of heartache and trouble.

As for potential, someone used the example of Jerry Rice. Well Jerry Rice had A potential. There's my arguement. you keep using real life examples to say why something that isn't real life is flawed. It doesn't make sense. Every player has a limit on his abilities!!! I can't press these keys any harder on this keyboard so you can't tell how much I'm stressing this point. You guys keep ignoring my example. No one can play past their physical abilities. Just like Jono said, Pat Williams isn't gonna outrun Usain Bolt. Pat Williams' physical ability/potential won't allow him to do that. Every player has a cap!!!

You know what? I'm done with this argument. You guys are sitting here saying players can play past their abilities. If thats the case then Pat Williams can beat Usain Bolt in a foot race if he tried hard enough. That's what you all are saying. Players are playing past their physical abilities. I'm done with this. It's obvious you guys have something stuck in your head and it ain't coming out. I've gave you example after example of how it works and yall still keep saying a player can play past his physical abilities. We're not talking about what a scout said, we're talking about god given abilities. God gave Pat Williams abilities that will never allow him to beat Usain bolt in a foot race, but Pat Williams can go beyond those abilities that god gave him and beat Usain Bolt. This is what you all are saying. Players can play past their god given ability(potential). I'm done. This is nonsense.