Madden football gameplay and some questions for the future...

[GiantBlue76]

Although I've been incredibly dissatisfied (like most folks) with the state of football gaming the past 6 years, I would be remiss if I did not point out that Madden HAS made improvement. I think it is still playing catch up to 2k and Fever gameplay from last gen, but there is a chance it will exceed expectations in the future. I see that this year is the year of gameplay, and while it appears there are some nice gameplay improvements (basing this on the videos), there are still many things that Madden needs (IMHO) in order to be considered a great game on the field. The consecutive hit tackles are a big one, challenge system, better animations, getting rid of the jump tackle, DB/WR interaction, moonwalking QB, QB throwing animations when off balance or on the run, etc. etc. They obviously didn't fix all of these in this release (the year of gameplay), so my concern is that for the next year, they will not make any improvements to gameplay because the reasoning will be that they focused on Franchise mode. I've always given Madden/Tiburon a hard time because they are very good at making excuses for missing items. Making improvements is great, but everything we see in Madden right now we have seen before in older games, and some of it was done better. That doesn't mean they aren't doing a good job of putting it in there now. Better late than never.

My main point is I fear that the dev team will rest on their laurels that they have made enough changes to gameplay this year (when clearly they haven't) and they will not really enhance the game much NEXT year. That will basically do next year, what it did THIS year for franchise fans. I am especially concerned about this after reading the post I read a few weeks back about how the TIB devs had a meeting to discuss MLB the Show, and they felt that making the game "too good" reduces sales for the following year because gamers didn't feel the need to upgrade. This is something that is even magnified for a game that has no real competition.

So what is everyone's thoughts? Do we get some more good gameplay improvements next year along with a franchise overhaul? Or do we get the excuse that Franchise was too hard so we couldn't make any gameplay improvements? I am hoping for the former.

[Only1LT]

Quote: Originally Posted by tazdevil20

Although I've been incredibly dissatisfied (like most folks) with the state of football gaming the past 6 years, I would be remiss if I did not point out that Madden HAS made improvement. I think it is still playing catch up to 2k and Fever gameplay from last gen, but there is a chance it will exceed expectations in the future. I see that this year is the year of gameplay, and while it appears there are some nice gameplay improvements (basing this on the videos), there are still many things that Madden needs (IMHO) in order to be considered a great game on the field. The consecutive hit tackles are a big one, challenge system, better animations, getting rid of the jump tackle, DB/WR interaction, moonwalking QB, QB throwing animations when off balance or on the run, etc. etc. They obviously didn't fix all of these in this release (the year of gameplay), so my concern is that for the next year, they will not make any improvements to gameplay because the reasoning will be that they focused on Franchise mode. I've always given Madden/Tiburon a hard time because they are very good at making excuses for missing items. Making improvements is great, but everything we see in Madden right now we have seen before in older games, and some of it was done better. That doesn't mean they aren't doing a good job of putting it in there now. Better late than never. My main point is I fear that the dev team will rest on their laurels that they have made enough changes to gameplay this year (when clearly they haven't) and they will not really enhance the game much NEXT year. That will basically do next year, what it did THIS year for franchise fans. I am especially concerned about this after reading the post I read a few weeks back about how the TIB devs had a meeting to discuss MLB the Show, and they felt that making the game "too good" reduces sales for the following year because gamers didn't feel the need to upgrade. This is something that is even magnified for a game that has no real competition. So what is everyone's thoughts? Do we get some more good gameplay improvements next year along with a franchise overhaul? Or do we get the excuse that Franchise was too hard so we couldn't make any gameplay improvements? I am hoping for the former.

I did not see this post. Is this a legit and factual account of what really happened, or this internet hearsay?

[GiantBlue76]

Quote: Originally Posted by Only1LT

I did not see this post. Is this a legit and factual account of what really happened, or this internet hearsay?

http://www.operationsports.com/forum...post2041225261

http://www.operationsports.com/forum...post2041225403

Read those in order. Kind of sucks...

[Only1LT]

Quote: Originally Posted by tazdevil20

http://www.operationsports.com/forum...post2041225261 http://www.operationsports.com/forum...post2041225403 Read those in order. Kind of sucks...

Pretty much hearsay. Not that I don't think it's possible. Many, myself included, have speculated that this happens, but we have no proof.

All I know is that I don't think that Madden is any more than a serviceable Football game. Why that is, from an organizational philosophy perspective, I would just be guessing.

[Only1LT]

More on topic though. There are many areas (and I mean MANY) that Madden needs improvement in. You have touched on some of the bigger ones.

The animation one doesn't make sense to me though. I don't understand why this is such a problem area for them. They mo cap as much, if not more so, than any other development team that I know of. Yet the animations do not look right to me. They are definitely better in 11 than they have probably ever been, but they still aren't right in my opinion.

I do know more about development than the average Joe (I'm a year from my BS in Computer Science and I have worked in IT, in a non development capacity for the last 3yrs), but I'm far from an expert, so I won't pretend to know what the problem is. But it seems to me that the issue lies in the tech they use to render what they captured. Mortal Kombat, even with missing many frames, looked more like human movement than the animations that are in Madden at 60fps, and that just doesn't make sense to me. Walt Disney used to actually draw over the cells of live action to get the animations more realistic in their movies, can't something like this be done in a sports game? There is so much NFL footage that I have to believe that every situation that you would need to draw from has already happened. Is it not possible to draw polygons over actual NFL footage?

Just thinking out loud (in print lol) here. All I know is that even with the improvement of loco, the animations (especially the QB's movements in the Pocket) are still quite lacking. The transitions are another problem area.

[GiantBlue76]

Quote: Originally Posted by Only1LT

More on topic though. There are many areas (and I mean MANY) that Madden needs improvement in. You have touched on some of the bigger ones. The animation one doesn't make sense to me though. I don't understand why this is such a problem area for them. They mo cap as much, if not more so, than any other development team that I know of. Yet the animations do not look right to me. They are definitely better in 11 than they have probably ever been, but they still aren't right in my opinion. I do know more about development than the average Joe (I'm a year from my BS in Computer Science and I have worked in IT, in a non development capacity for the last 3yrs), but I'm far from an expert, so I won't pretend to know what the problem is. But it seems to me that the issue lies in the tech they use to render what they captured. Mortal Kombat, even with missing many frames, looked more like human movement than the animations that are in Madden at 60fps, and that just doesn't make sense to me. Walt Disney used to actually draw over the cells of live action to get the animations more realistic in their movies, can't something like this be done in a sports game? There is so much NFL footage that I have to believe that every situation that you would need to draw from has already happened. Is it not possible to draw polygons over actual NFL footage? Just thinking out loud (in print lol) here. All I know is that even with the improvement of loco, the animations (especially the QB's movements in the Pocket) are still quite lacking. The transitions are another problem area.

I think much of the problems in the animation area are the fact that the players do not give you the impression that they are "alive". When i play APF, I am amazed at the personalities players seem to exhibit away from the play. For example, I was playing the other day and I finished a run with my HB. After the whistle, I saw a lineman shove a DB in the back and he stumbled realistically and fell to the ground. The lineman also lost a bit of balance from the shove and stumbled realistically. he didn't do an "about face" turn and walk like a robot back to the huddle. It's these "little" nuances that make a BIG difference.

If I hadn't seen lifelike animations in other older games, then I probably wouldn't be as hard on the Madden team for not getting right after years and years. However, I have, and until Madden has some competition to light a fire under the dev team and the EA marketing machine, things will continue to be the same. Madden will be purchased used and I will pay the 10.00 for the online pass if it is good enough to play.

[Only1LT]

Quote: Originally Posted by tazdevil20

I think much of the problems in the animation area are the fact that the players do not give you the impression that they are "alive". When i play APF, I am amazed at the personalities players seem to exhibit away from the play. For example, I was playing the other day and I finished a run with my HB. After the whistle, I saw a lineman shove a DB in the back and he stumbled realistically and fell to the ground. The lineman also lost a bit of balance from the shove and stumbled realistically. he didn't do an "about face" turn and walk like a robot back to the huddle. It's these "little" nuances that make a BIG difference. If I hadn't seen lifelike animations in other older games, then I probably wouldn't be as hard on the Madden team for not getting right after years and years. However, I have, and until Madden has some competition to light a fire under the dev team and the EA marketing machine, things will continue to be the same. Madden will be purchased used and I will pay the 10.00 for the online pass if it is good enough to play.

Things like that do go a long way at adding realism to the game and immersing the player in it, but that is only if the rest of the package is solid. The animations in general look off to me, so for me, having them do things after the play isn't gonna do anything for me, because the after the play animations will probably look just as off as all the other animations to me.

Like I said, I can't for the life of me figure out why their animations are not on the level of other games. Not just Football games, but other games across many genres. They spend too much time and money on mo-capping for it not to blow everyone else out of the water, but for some reason (rendering?) it just doesn't.

Madden 11 has some of the best animations that I've seen in any Madden game, yet it still lags far behind other games that I've seen. The question I keep asking myself is how is this possible?