Player Progression In Franchise Mode.

[Deelron]

Quote: Originally Posted by PrettyT11

It was already pre determined who was going to get better and who wasn't not matter what happened. I got tired of seeing Johnathan Stewart ride the bench the Panthers and never get more than 300 yards in a season turn into one of the top 4 rated RB's in the league. That is just not realistic. Or Crabtree for example. No matter what kind of numbers he put up he was going to be a 99 after 3 or 4 years.

Using 1st round rookies is a bad example for testing, nobody knows what they're going to be and few people playing the game want their teams 1st round draft pick to stink out of the box, even if it's universally panned. 1st round rookies are always going to be overrated by potential, regardless of accuracy (and I certainly they should't always progress the same way.

Secondly there are plenty of players who get low numbers in low playing time (or no playing) who become good down the road. A system that rewards performance as a primary factor largely negates the possibly of a (just scanning the 2009 offensive league leaders list) Tom Brady, Drew Brees, Aaron Rodgers, Matt Schaub, Kurt Warner, Kyle Ortan, Ryan Grant, Jamal Charles, Rashard Mendenhall, Fred Jackson, Wes Welker, Steve Smith (NYG), Miles Austin, Sidney Rice, Derrick Mason, or Donald Driver, players who spent one or more years of their early careers doing little to nothing and the moment they stepped into a prominent role did well.

Wes Welker didn't get better in game experience, he had 29 catches his first 3 seasons. Under a majority performance system by the time he would have broken out in reality his persona's progression in Madden would have largely stopped by being the league for 3 years already, as Madden typically does.

The last thing I'd add is that Johnathan Stewart is an interesting example, and I wonder how much of that OVR rating (which isn't a great way to analyze players anyway) is his AWR just moving up due to his time in the league. Jumps in AWR can really change a players OVR rating without significantly changing how the player actually plays.

[Deelron]

Quote: Originally Posted by mavfan21

It is perfectly realisitc the way it is. Last gen you could make ANY pick a stud....so why bother with the draft? Now you have to be smart.

Couldn't say it better myself, I remember just going "hey he has a good AGI/SPD, I'll just draft him and make him good."

[DTSkins]

Quote: Originally Posted by Deelron

Using 1st round rookies is a bad example for testing, nobody knows what they're going to be and few people playing the game want their teams 1st round draft pick to stink out of the box, even if it's universally panned. 1st round rookies are always going to be overrated by potential, regardless of accuracy (and I certainly they should't always progress the same way. Secondly there are plenty of players who get low numbers in low playing time (or no playing) who become good down the road. A system that rewards performance as a primary factor largely negates the possibly of a (just scanning the 2009 offensive league leaders list) Tom Brady, Drew Brees, Aaron Rodgers, Matt Schaub, Kurt Warner, Kyle Ortan, Ryan Grant, Jamal Charles, Rashard Mendenhall, Fred Jackson, Wes Welker, Steve Smith (NYG), Miles Austin, Sidney Rice, Derrick Mason, or Donald Driver, players who spent one or more years of their early careers doing little to nothing and the moment they stepped into a prominent role did well. Wes Welker didn't get better in game experience, he had 29 catches his first 3 seasons. Under a majority performance system by the time he would have broken out in reality his persona's progression in Madden would have largely stopped by being the league for 3 years already, as Madden typically does. The last thing I'd add is that Johnathan Stewart is an interesting example, and I wonder how much of that OVR rating (which isn't a great way to analyze players anyway) is his AWR just moving up due to his time in the league. Jumps in AWR can really change a players OVR rating without significantly changing how the player actually plays.

This is true. I remember LenDale White going up to an 85 but his trucking and stiff arm stayed the same and only his awareness and ball carrier vision went up. Thank God! This way, he can identify the holes he should be running through but still try to punch new ones.

The best ideas I've seen here are hidden potential and randomized potential at the start of every franchise.

[PrettyT11]

Quote: Originally Posted by mavfan21

Miles Austin, Tony Romo....never or barely played and then performed like 90 plus rated stars. Corey Dillon, Roy Williams, had big seasons and then fizzled out fast. Many more examples of each litter the NFL. Madden 10 portrayed this. You couldn't turn any player you drafted into a stud by force feeding them. You had to draft well, trade well and sign well. No cheating. It is perfectly realisitc the way it is. Last gen you could make ANY pick a stud....so why bother with the draft? Now you have to be smart.

First Corey Dillion was not a player who had one year and fizzled out. He was a very good RB from day one until he got old(for RB's) then became a servicable backup.

But no what you said is not portrayed in Madden 10. In Madden 10 it was predetermined who was going to get better or not no matter what happened on the field. So there are no Romo's or Austin's. Just like there are no Roy Williams senarios either. Take Dwayne Bowe for example. He had a very good year the season before Madden 10. So in Madden 10 he had a A potential rating. Even if the Chiefs went 0 and 16 and Bowe only caught 30 passes his rating went up to a 95 after the first season. There is nothing realistic about that at all. If that would have actually happen last year Bowe's rating in Madden 11 would drop alot. Just look at his rating in Madden 11 compared to Madden 10. There was no chance of that happening in Madden 10. He was getting better no matter what happened.

Since I used Bowe as an example his teammate Jamaal Charles is another example of how it was messed up in Madden 10. In Madden 10 his rating was low with a C potential if I'm not mistaken. So no matter what he did on the field his rating would get no higher than around an 80. Yet in real life he produced for the Chiefs and no has a 87 rating in Madden 11 while probably having A potential now. In Madden 10 it was impossible to get him to that kind of rating. So if you produced the same results or better in the game with him why shouldn't you get somewhat of a similar boost in ratings like he got from Ian and Co.??

Lastly in Madden 10 you didn't have to be smart. In fact it was the opposite. You already knew from the beginning who was going to become stars or not and that doesn't even get into the EA made draft classes. You definantly didn't have to be smart about those because you already knew who was going to be great and who wasn't. You could wait and get a guy Ozzie Jones in the 6th round knowing he was going to become a star.

[PrettyT11]

Quote: Originally Posted by Deelron

Using 1st round rookies is a bad example for testing, nobody knows what they're going to be and few people playing the game want their teams 1st round draft pick to stink out of the box, even if it's universally panned. 1st round rookies are always going to be overrated by potential, regardless of accuracy (and I certainly they should't always progress the same way. Secondly there are plenty of players who get low numbers in low playing time (or no playing) who become good down the road. A system that rewards performance as a primary factor largely negates the possibly of a (just scanning the 2009 offensive league leaders list) Tom Brady, Drew Brees, Aaron Rodgers, Matt Schaub, Kurt Warner, Kyle Ortan, Ryan Grant, Jamal Charles, Rashard Mendenhall, Fred Jackson, Wes Welker, Steve Smith (NYG), Miles Austin, Sidney Rice, Derrick Mason, or Donald Driver, players who spent one or more years of their early careers doing little to nothing and the moment they stepped into a prominent role did well. Wes Welker didn't get better in game experience, he had 29 catches his first 3 seasons. Under a majority performance system by the time he would have broken out in reality his persona's progression in Madden would have largely stopped by being the league for 3 years already, as Madden typically does. The last thing I'd add is that Johnathan Stewart is an interesting example, and I wonder how much of that OVR rating (which isn't a great way to analyze players anyway) is his AWR just moving up due to his time in the league. Jumps in AWR can really change a players OVR rating without significantly changing how the player actually plays.

Your second paragraph is why I said I prefer the old way like in Madden 05 where is was a combination of both performance and potential. You guys are missing my entire point. In this new system they got none of those players you mentioned would become good in Madden 10. That is largely because they would have had very low potential from the start. I never said I wanted a system based entirely on performance. I said I prefer one that is based on both.

As far as the Stewart thing goes. He was going up in more than just AWR. His carry, vision, and as well as other ratings all went up.

[Deelron]

Quote: Originally Posted by PrettyT11

Your second paragraph is why I said I prefer the old way like in Madden 05 where is was a combination of both performance and potential. You guys are missing my entire point. In this new system they got none of those players you mentioned would become good in Madden 10. That is largely because they would have had very low potential from the start. I never said I wanted a system based entirely on performance. I said I prefer one that is based on both. As far as the Stewart thing goes. He was going up in more than just AWR. His carry, vision, and as well as other ratings all went up.

Aaron Rodgers was a 1st Rnd pick, and a few of them were 2nds, but the point I'm trying to make isn't about existing players, existing players (as a group, individually some will be hit or misses) are never going to be rated dead on potentially because it's just not possible to predict what's going to happen in that sense.

On top that any performance system that makes enough of a difference to matter is just going to favor the human player and push ratings up more, and the complexity involved in making sure everything is reasonable and still customizable to the player doesn't make it worth the effort. All of a sudden you're going to have to compensate for individual players settings as the stats in 15 min games don't equal the stats in 6 minute games, nor games with Accelerated clock on, or the variety of other time related options. Last-gen's problem with players like LB's not progressing well due to not having enough tackles compared to their computer controlled counterparts is a prime example. It'd take quite a bit of work to get this function to work without quite a bit of wonkiness.

I think we're at two different points and that perhaps I wasn't being as clear as I would have liked to be. I don't believe it's really possible with the current system to have the specific players I mentioned to progress as they did in real life, it'd require a variable for how current players who haven't progressed much in their career to progress down the road and could cause more problems then it's worth. What I think is right about the potential system is that you can have those types of players within the fictional draft system. A system that doesn't progress some (all) players exclusively on potential rating negates those type of players from appearing.

After a quick couple sims (no injuries) on Stewart on Madden 10 I'm not sure what happened with your season, he gained quite a bit the first year in ratings but year 2 he didn't progress at all, year 3 he went up by 1 in a couple categories, and he rushed for 800+ yards in all 3 seasons, so he got used. I'm not sure why he wasn't playing in your franchise. He was tied for 8th best RB in the league, although he wouldn't have been much further down ~15th had he never progressed.

[Tweeg]

Quote: Originally Posted by mavfan21

Miles Austin, Tony Romo....never or barely played and then performed like 90 plus rated stars. Corey Dillon, Roy Williams, had big seasons and then fizzled out fast. Many more examples of each litter the NFL. Madden 10 portrayed this. You couldn't turn any player you drafted into a stud by force feeding them. You had to draft well, trade well and sign well. No cheating. It is perfectly realisitc the way it is. Last gen you could make ANY pick a stud....so why bother with the draft? Now you have to be smart.

...This.

Except Corey Dillon was very good for a long time in Cinci.

[cheapargentina]

madden wont be able to properly incorporate progression and regression until they add a few missing factors to franchise mode. right now progression is based on age, potential, and performance which in my mind is right only to a point.

potential is nothing but a limit on how good someone can be. for example if tom brady was drafted this year he would most likely not have a high potential rating due to where he was drafted. would it make sense that he cant make it to 99 because he wasnt a first or second round pick?

age is another concept that should not play a factor if you look at Brett and TO they are both old but still playing at a very high level or a much higher level that another player their age would normally play at so why penalize em for being old. instead of using age as a factor for making someone regress implement some sort of health or body deterioration meter which would show how well a player has taken care of their body and how much punishment a player has taken. for example if deangelo williams and jonathan stewart were 30 years old today their "health meter" wouldnt be as low as say tomlinsons is in because they share the work load and dont take the beating RBs that carry the load all by themselves.

performance to me is the only thing i can understand factoring into the equation at this point. but they would need some sort of practice mode where you could decide which ones of your players worked harder similar to the the whole training 3 players before each game to really balance everything. it shouldnt be based completely of stats it should be a mix of effort (aka practice mode), stats, and efficiency (efficiency = performance per number of plays played and amount of plays MADE)

also they need to bring back the feature where players would be influence by their teammates. for example if u have a 64 OVR guy sitting on da bench behind manning he would learn a lot more than if he was sitting behind kyle orton. learning translates to madden by progression so the guy behind manning could possibly improve to 67 while da guy behind orton only goes up to 65 (if hes lucky). a similar system should be made for coaches (i dont think coach bonuses work very well right now).

like i said a practice mode needs to be implemented and i think it should work similar to the practice mode in NCAA RTG with a little bit of nba 2k10 mixed in. for example u should have a set amount of plays per practice and you should be able to divide the plays per player similar to da way you divide minutes of playing time in nba 2k10. for those unfamiliar with da system ill explain it briefly. u get 240 points(minutes) hence the 48 minutes da game lasts times 5 players on the court at a time. u divide the 240 minutes amongst every player on your roster giving your starters the most, your role players the second most and your backups the least.

i also dont agree with a player not being able to get stronger or faster. has no one ever heard of bulking up or slimming down?

just a system i came up with on a really long trip obviously not anywhere near perfect but i think it could work
let me know wut u guys think.