the "mainstream, casual" debate

[SA1NT401]

Quote: Originally Posted by ODogg

marktwain77 - I think you're operating under a faulty assumption that people who are hardcore fans will buy the game no matter what. Not only are there polls here on the forums that refute that notion but practically everyone I know that used to be HARDCORE Madden guys and who would go wait in line with me at midnight no longer buy the game. I think everyone seems to think that Madden is capturing about 99% of the guys who are NFL nuts and play video games but I think they're completely wrong on that. Just guessing from the people I know but if I had to guess I'd say Madden is getting about 65 to 70% of those fans. I think the game has just been too slow to improve on the next-gen and people see videos of it and it just seems like the same thing (whether it is or not is not the issue, the issue is it just seems that it is) so they are not buying it. And when I say hardcore I don't mean the OS audience here specifically, I am talking about the guys we all grew up with who would always buy Madden every year without fail. Those guys aren't buying the game every year anymore. That is the audience EA needs to work on bringing back to the table. Winning them back would make more sense and be easier than trying to win an entirely new audience who doesn't even particularly know when the NFL season starts.

Funny you mention your friends and midnight releases....I was just having that discussion here at work about an hour ago. Back a few years, even being as old as i am, we used to get together (5-6 of us) grab food then head to the madden release...etc etc... That doesnt happen anymore. Now we all have families, Kids, wives etc....But that ISNT the reason...

Those are really the times i kinda miss...Those are the games i miss. Maybe I/we are just getting older and when changes happen, most arent willing to face those changes. But usually the reasons make sense...In this case they dont.'

Sorry for the rant, but felt it was relevant.

[ODogg]

I miss it too. My friend Mike was the last guy out of all of my friends to buy Madden each year with me. This year he said he wasn't buying it. I'm still hoping once he plays it at my house he will change his mind but he was my last buddy (I mean someone I know in real life, not an OS or online Xbox Live buddy) who was still buying it with me. I should have known last year when he didn't buy it for like 2 weeks after it was out he was getting into the "I don't care really" camp but I just tried to chalk it up to he was busy. But yeah, it's terribly sad, the end of an era.

[rooney8]

Quote: Originally Posted by ODogg

I miss it too. My friend Mike was the last guy out of all of my friends to buy Madden each year with me. This year he said he wasn't buying it. I'm still hoping once he plays it at my house he will change his mind but he was my last buddy (I mean someone I know in real life, not an OS or online Xbox Live buddy) who was still buying it with me. I should have known last year when he didn't buy it for like 2 weeks after it was out he was getting into the "I don't care really" camp but I just tried to chalk it up to he was busy. But yeah, it's terribly sad, the end of an era.

I sound like your friend Mike and I am only 23. Honestly I think it's down to franchise mode not getting older. That used to get me completely immersed in the game and playing 10 hours straight. With Madden now as an offline guy there is just nothing to hold my interest. A great franchise mode might get some of the I don't care really camp back but maybe not.

[REDRZA]

Quote: Originally Posted by PGaither84

Look, if that was his point, then fine. I will agree that Madden is geared to the casual crowd, but how is that not obvious? I have been a part of long conversations about Madden, sports games, and video games in the past. the simple fact is that sports games as a whole are becoming more and more of a niche in the market rather than a major aspect of that market. When you combine this with the fact that Madden, to the casual gamer is "too confusing." Most casual gamers feel intimidated the first time they pick up Madden just against the computer. Then, if/when they try to play with a seasoned Madden player, it's all over. It's just too much for them. The point/idea that the casual fan knows what a 4-3 or a 3-4 defense is is conjecture. Most of the fans of NFL teams and of football really don't pay that much attention to the game outside of the big plays. We have a really nice sports bar near our local state university just a 30min drive from where I live. A LOT of people gather every Sunday and Monday night to watch the games, and just from that experience alone you meet all kinds of fans, sometimes ones from different parts of the country as college students and their parents come out from all over. The average fan, if I had to put money on it, I would bet doesn't even know who the majority of their teams starters are. They want to cheer for big names and big plays while they jeer their rivals.

Couldn't disagree more about NFL "Fans", or your points on Madden. Fans of anything, are hardcore about it. A "fan" is short for "fanatic". Most fans know the starters, and also second and third string players. College kids and their parents who are out socializing at a local sports bar doesn't necessarily mean they are "Fans".

As far as Madden goes, making the game more geared toward the casual gamer is NOT a good business move. First off, casual gamers don't play hardcore sports games, they play casual games. The only thing EA will accomplish is alienating its true fan base, the hardcore gamer (IE; Madden FANS).

Peter Moore has been hellbent on making this game more "pick up and play" since the day he was hired. If you don't think this is a business move with them really believing sales will increase if they dumb the game down, then you are not paying attention. Gameflow is a glorified "ask Madden" where the cpu pick ONE play for you. It was designed to eliminate the play calling process, and to speed up games. Same thing for strategy pad. Designed to map all in game options to one place, AND have it written on screen making it EASIER for the casual gamer.

This is not about whether or not you can turn off these features, it is about the direction the development team is going with the game. More troubling to me than those features which you can turn off (gameflow) and the strategy pad (which i kinda like anyway, but soon will be patched as we all know) is the fact that the game is VERY offensive, making it almost arcadish at times with all the broken tackles and one play scores. This also fits the "casual gamer" direction.

I think Sony's MLB team "gets it", so does EA Canada with the NHL series. Just make the best quality game you can make, make it as authentic as possible in all areas from game play, presentation, features, modes, AI, all of it. Make the game as true to the sport as you can, and it will sell. Besides, doesnt EA make a Madden for Cell phones, Madden arcade, Madden for Wii, all of which are geared toward casual gamers?

Im a hardcore NFL fan and want a great playing, DEEP game with a ton of strategy. I don't want "simpler" or "quicker", i only want "deeper", which Madden 11 is not at the moment.

[REDRZA]

Quote: Originally Posted by ODogg

I miss it too. My friend Mike was the last guy out of all of my friends to buy Madden each year with me. This year he said he wasn't buying it. I'm still hoping once he plays it at my house he will change his mind but he was my last buddy (I mean someone I know in real life, not an OS or online Xbox Live buddy) who was still buying it with me. I should have known last year when he didn't buy it for like 2 weeks after it was out he was getting into the "I don't care really" camp but I just tried to chalk it up to he was busy. But yeah, it's terribly sad, the end of an era.

Odogg, great points and exactly the reason EA needs to really focus on making a better, smarter, deeper NFL game all arounf instead of going the casual route.

I have been playing Madden RELIGIOUSLY since 1989. I have, for the last few year been disenchanted with the game, but still WANT to love it. I have never missed a Madden launch. However, every year i have been let down and i don't know how much longer i will keep buying the game. Us long time Madden FANS have battered wife syndrome. We keep giving EA excuses, keep rationalizing reasons we should buy it, to only be hit again.

Sad to say but the only way we will ever get any improvements is if we ALL speak with our wallets. Sadly, it will never happen because guys like me are still hunting the game as early as possible with the HOPE things will be better THIS YEAR. I'm tired of waiting for "Next year" that never comes. Not when i see great sports games like MLB the Show, NHL, Fight Night etc. just being better overall games than the one game i really love, the only reason i am still gaming, which is Madden.

[PAPERNUT]

Quote: Originally Posted by REDRZA

Sad to say but the only way we will ever get any improvements is if we ALL speak with our wallets. Sadly, it will never happen because guys like me are still hunting the game as early as possible with the HOPE things will be better THIS YEAR. I'm tired of waiting for "Next year" that never comes. Not when i see great sports games like MLB the Show, NHL, Fight Night etc. just being better overall games than the one game i really love, the only reason i am still gaming, which is Madden.

Bingo. I held back my $60 for that reason and hope it has some effect in the future. If not, I am getting used to no quality NFL game anyway as I honestly have not had fun with an NFL game since the Xbox/PS2 days.

[REDRZA]

Quote: Originally Posted by quietcool72

Well written. I think we need to state the obvious though. The NFL exclusive contract allows EA to have the luxury of taking years off. I think I can honestly say after playing 10, with its "85 new features", versus playing Madden 11, with what amounts to a new version of "ask Madden" and "Co-op play" (oh boy!)...that this is a relative "year off" by comparison to Madden 10. (To say nothing of the new bugs/glitches). I know there are those out there who argue that competition is over-valued. (And I've seen some of those articles here.) - But look at the shooter market. Just think if Bungie was content to put out a Halo game that just has basic shooting and grenade throwing and offered nothing new, and little to appease its hardcore fanbase? Imagine if the only thing Bungie valued was more people buying the game, as opposed to putting out the best, most polished product they could. Imagine if Bungie stated publicly "We just want to make the game easier for the new player to play." But they wouldn't. Nor could they...and remain in the top tier, because they have the Call of Duty series, the new Medal of Honor, and the "Battlefield" series all competing for gamer dollars. But that's the luxury that EA has... a luxury that has led to some serious complacency, IMHO. But it is easy to blame Ian in the gang. Truth is, I wish Ian and his team had more control over the direction of the product, but they don't. They won't really admit it for obvious reasons, but they don't. They are bound to multi-year product road-maps that they are saddled with. Even their new "Game Changer" guys are evaluated on a very subjective criteria. They are required to show that they "grow the community". (Read: Promote the existing game). And in the waning years of the "Community Leaders Program"- we were all lectured at times about our conduct being too much about suggestions, product input and criticism and not enough "growing the community". We even suggested that there be a post release "Madden Round Table" involving the community leaders shortly after launch of a given Madden product, where direction and suggestion for the NEXT Madden's feature set could be put in there by fans at an early enough stage in the development of the next product. The Community Manager took that idea to EA corporate, and it was shot down. They simply do not want any outside ideas. Their multi-year roadmap is set by corporate, and they are not deviating. EA is still on their casual high-horse that they've been on ever since they saw the sick numbers that the Wii sold. They keep mis reading those tea leaves though, because no matter how much they dumb Madden down on Wii and cartoonize it, it comes in well behind the more serious Madden on the other consoles. Yet, they still keep targeting casuals who buy few games per year, at the expense of alienating long-time buyers. I'm of the opinion that the product has to move away from EA Tiburon in Orlando and up to EA Vancouver. Too many suits at the Orlando site, too much oversight. Plus, I think the strides that EA Canada has made on the games it has been charged with have outpaced what we have seen from EA Tiburon by a wide margin.

DING DING DING DING!!! This man is kicking knowledge.

[tastybrownies]

Quote: Originally Posted by mrprice33

To me sports games are like an EQ. You never play it "flat," and always tailor it to your individual tastes. The out of the box settings are basically worthless, especially now that online players can play in leagues with adjusted sliders. There's no reason to just play randoms.

If you're saying what I think you're saying, that is an absolute excellent analogy. It made me think of when I'm in my car adjusting the settings such as bass, mid, treble, etc. for the different kinds of music I play. For example, for metal I have high mid, medium bass, lower treble; Whereas, for music such as classical, I have higher treble and good bass.