What exactly is a "short" "medium" and "deep" pass?

[tlc12576]

Quote: Originally Posted by TNT713

Whoa!!! You have to ignore a lot of stuff that Madden does well to simulate the strategic management of personnel, position, and tempo to make this statement with confidence..... .....Again... User Skill at play calling, adjustments, and execution are the separators. Later

Let us just break this all down into 2 simple questions.

1. Does Madden 11 do sufficient job of simulating what happens when/if NFL QBs drop back 20+ yds to pass and when/if NFL QBs throw sideline to sideline?

2.If Madden 11 does NOT do sufficient job of simulating these things, should EA be expected to correct this?

Answer 1 is cut and dry. Madden 11 does NOT do a sufficient job in simulating these passes because the real life limitations of NFL QB's making these passes are NOT fully accounted for. You can post all day about theories and philosophies pertaining to user preparation but at the end of the day, this is still the truth.

Answer 2 seems like it should just be a matter of opinion but it's actually cut and dry too. Yes, EA should be expected to correct this because Madden 11 is classified as a NFL simulation video game. With this classification, comes the expectation that Madden will have sufficient simulation of real NFL QB play represented. This is currently impossible in Madden 11 because QBs do NOT have their real life NFL limitations represented in the game.

Your entire concept of the user being responsible for "playing with the hand they' re dealt" sounds good but it doesn't apply when talking about a simulation game. Unlike an arcade or fantasy game, where the user is only bound by the limitation of their imaginations, simulation games are expected to contain real world limitations that create boundaries for successful user imagination. For example, in NFL Blitz, if I have good user skills that allow me to, run backwards 20+ yds, avoid pressure, throw the ball accurately 80 yds and switch to the receiver to make a one-handed catch, everytime, that's successfully utilizing user skill and imagination in an arcade game, without real life limitations. However, attempting that same thing in a NFL simulation game, regardless of user skill or imagination, should have disastrous results because of the real life limitations that should be represented.

It's cool that you think Madden is a great game and can overlook when it doesn't simulate NFL football properly because you can just utilize you user skill and imagination to compensate. However, the fact that you or anyone else can do that so successfully in-game, just highlights how much Madden lacks real NFL limitations and why no one should be claiming, Madden 11 is a sufficient NFL simulation game.

[manrae]

I can not complete long ball passes to save my life, I overthrow them almost every single time

What can I do to pass better, what techniques do you guys use cause on Pro with Interceptions on 1 *u read right* I throw interceptions and even on rookie I threw 2 interceptions almost back to back

And on deep hail mary type routes, the WR can be open, but is over thrown every time, doesn't matter the QB

I Practice, but nothing. Can I get some tips please?

(Ps3 user)

[TNT713]

Quote: Originally Posted by manrae

I can not complete long ball passes to save my life, I overthrow them almost every single time What can I do to pass better, what techniques do you guys use cause on Pro with Interceptions on 1 *u read right* I throw interceptions and even on rookie I threw 2 interceptions almost back to back And on deep hail mary type routes, the WR can be open, but is over thrown every time, doesn't matter the QB I Practice, but nothing. Can I get some tips please? (Ps3 user)

You may have fallen victim to the idea that Madden passing is all Willy-nilly and there is no representation for skill, or poor mechanics. Congratulations, you get to be the proof that those guys are wrong.

Good news!!! You can correct your accuracy by correcting your technique.

Without seeing you play, I can only guess that you are throwing the ball while on the move and/or pressing the button too hard with defenders underneath the direct flight of the ball.

Assuming you are throwing a streak route - and the DB's aren't jamming you - you should be ready to press the button as the QB plants his foot on his 7th step. At which point the QB will turn toward the intended receiver, step with his toe pointing toward where the receiver will catch the ball, and fire the ball in that direction.

Get the mental clock in your head set so you know exactly when to deliver the ball in a way that gives your receiver the best chance at getting separation. I recommend you spend about 10 minutes in practice mode WITHOUT THE DEFENSE throwing 3, 5, and 7-step passes while counting your steps OUT LOUD. Timing alone will help you improve. You may also notice how many times you will complete a pass by throwing the ball BEFORE a receiver cuts on many routes like deep puts, hooks, slants, and posts.

Once you've set your internal clock, the next step is working on pass placement. You have three things you can do to throw passes and all effect the placement.

Button pressure - the harder the pressure, the more velocity
Button time - the longer you hold it, the lower the trajectory

Left Stick - The stick modifies a default throw distance forward/backward/left/right or height up/down (depending on the route) in any direction the stick is pressed...

Passes that are overthrown indicate a bad passing mechanic... try this to get more accuracy:

Just before you press the icon button to throw, release the left stick just long enough for it to center. If you're moving, this will be long enough to set your feet and prepare to throw. Don't worry about the reengaging the stick, because you want to get the basic throw right before you adjust it...

Tap the receiver's icon as softly as you can to throw the pass. Then hold the button as firmly as you can. FEEL THE DIFFERENCE. Now work on pressing the button on your 7th step (for a streak) so that the ball lands as the receiver has run 40 yards from the LOS (you may want to re-spot the ball). Congratulations, you've learned how to throw a perfect BASIC BOMB PASS.

But basics won't keep your INT totals down. You need to use the stick to throw receiver's open.

Lastly, still in Practice mode... Throw 12 passes to a streaking receiver. Imagine a defender playing from either inside, outside, under, or over (like points on a compass) and use the left stick to direct the pass AWAY from your imaginary defender...

You will notice that you can place the pass almost anywhere within a 10 yard range of your receiver's default spot simply using button pressure and the stick.

The next step is learning to read coverage... That's a whole other post. But once you learn to control your throws, reading the defense is easier.

Quote: Originally Posted by tlc12576

1. Does Madden 11 do sufficient job of simulating what happens when/if NFL QBs drop back 20+ yds to pass and when/if NFL QBs throw sideline to sideline? Answer 1 is cut and dry. Madden 11 does NOT do a sufficient job in simulating these passes because the real life limitations of NFL QB's making these passes are NOT fully accounted for.

I hope you don't mind me pairing your Q&A portions together to address these individually:

I'm not aware of any real life limitations that prevent a person from running one direction, then turning and throwing in the opposite direction. I'm not even a professional athlete and I can do it. But you make mention of a 20yard drop AND a cross field pass which is a slightly different matter - I wouldn't expect someone who isn't a pro QB to be able to do it accurately. So let's break down the possibility, then address the probability...

Let's do the math... Using the Pythagorean theorem (a^2) + (b^2) = c^2

If A and B are the horizontal length of the field and distance from the LOS respectively, we can calculate how long the cross field throw actually is so we can have a frame of reference in reality...

In your example, you stated 20+ yards as a drop, so I'll go with 20 yards because it's a prettier number. The field is 53 yards wide from sideline to sideline. Plug these into the forumla an we have:

(53^2) + (20^2) = c^2
2809 + 400 = 3209

The square root of 3209 is 56.6 yards... We'll round up to 57 yards.

Is it logical that a real QB can deliver a 57 yard pass? Sure. It stands to reason that any person that can throw a football 57 yards could throw it in any direction he chooses and the distance would not suffer...

Could this 57 yard pass that we have proven is possible also be accurate?

I'm going to assume that if a player can throw an accurate pass to a receiver 57 yards in the air down the field, they can also throw it accurately across the field.

The alignment of the lines on the field have no bearing in the physical abilities of players.

Quote: Originally Posted by tlc12576

2.If Madden 11 does NOT do sufficient job of simulating these things, should EA be expected to correct this? Answer 2 seems like it should just be a matter of opinion but it's actually cut and dry too. Yes, EA should be expected to correct this because Madden 11 is classified as a NFL simulation video game. With this classification, comes the expectation that Madden will have sufficient simulation of real NFL QB play represented. This is currently impossible in Madden 11 because QBs do NOT have their real life NFL limitations represented in the game.

That's a big IF.

It assumes first, that the 57 yard cross field pass is impossible to complete even against a porous coverage that gives up the area within 5 yards of the line of scrimmage opposite the QB's rollout.

It also assumes that passes cross field passes are always accompanied with a 20-yard drop, when in fact, players that drop 20 yards gain no distance on their throws. A QB that can throw 65 yards can throw that same distance whether he's at the LOS or 20 yards behind it.

In effect, Madden simulates the physical limitations of quarterbacks... How fast they run and how far they can throw.

Quote: Originally Posted by tlc12576

Your entire concept of the user being responsible for "playing with the hand they' re dealt" sounds good but it doesn't apply when talking about a simulation game. Unlike an arcade or fantasy game, where the user is only bound by the limitation of their imaginations, simulation games are expected to contain real world limitations that create boundaries for successful user imagination.

Madden contains some limitations, but allow players to use their imaginations. I can run an 11 man blitz, not because I've seen it done, but because it's in my imagination. If I run an 11 man blitz, Madden will simulate the one of the countless possibilities of my decision.

Sometimes my 11 man blitz will earn a sack. Sometimes i'll get burned over the top for 6. Sometimes the QB will get the ball deflected. Sometimes the QB will fumble. Sometimes the offense will run the ball. Sometimes they will get tackled in the backfield. Sometimes there will be a broken tackle. Sometimes this, sometimes that...

But the same thing isn't going to happen every time...

Quote: Originally Posted by tlc12576

For example, in NFL Blitz, if I have good user skills that allow me to, run backwards 20+ yds, avoid pressure, throw the ball accurately 80 yds and switch to the receiver to make a one-handed catch, everytime, that's successfully utilizing user skill and imagination in an arcade game, without real life limitations. However, attempting that same thing in a NFL simulation game, regardless of user skill or imagination, should have disastrous results because of the real life limitations that should be represented.

I'm neither familiar with Blitz, nor is it relevant because 'the same' NEVER happens in Madden. There are no 20 yard drops that end up with the QB throwing 80 yards in the air (although they may be 80 yard gains).

Quote: Originally Posted by tlc12576

It's cool that you think Madden is a great game and can overlook when it doesn't simulate NFL football properly because you can just utilize you user skill and imagination to compensate. However, the fact that you or anyone else can do that so successfully in-game, just highlights how much Madden lacks real NFL limitations and why no one should be claiming, Madden 11 is a sufficient NFL simulation game.

Sufficient for whom?

This cross the field pass we've proved is possible, a demonstration of how products of our imaginations are simulated in the Madden game, and a semi-detailed description of proper mechanics to deliver a deep ball illustrate my point pretty well...

I can't argue that nothing ever happened in a Madden game that was impossible... That would be silly of me. Likewise, you can't argue with with trig, or the fact that most any strategic ploy we imagination plays out out in Madden with a realistic range of predictable football outcomes.

So where is the separator?

Quote: Originally Posted by tlc12576

You can post all day about theories and philosophies pertaining to user preparation but at the end of the day, this is still the truth.

What is 'still the truth' is that there are PROFESSIONAL Madden players who practice technique, modify their strategy, and work hard to perfect their craft. It's also true that there are potentially millions of players that do not.

Where players falling victim to the threats you deem unrealistic succomb to them, it's usually in a realistic way because the play they imagined would work has a weakness against things they think shouldn't happen... Where if they spent half the time figuring out why the ploy their imagination believed would work didn't, they could imagine some that actually do.

But I imagine, if 57 yards is too far to complete a pass and 20 yards is too far to drop, the possibility of a pass thrown that far across the field working against a defense that leaves a receiver open is also a stretch... Users call the defenses, hence, I opt to fault user skill as the reason this tactic works as often as it does.

Later

[craxus]

Button pressure - the harder the pressure, the more velocity
Button time - the longer you hold it, the lower the trajectory

This please prove it.

I have only hear it changes the velocity and really it's only two modes high lob and low bullet. I have never seen any variation.

[PGaither84]

Quote: Originally Posted by craxus

Button pressure - the harder the pressure, the more velocity Button time - the longer you hold it, the lower the trajectory This please prove it. I have only hear it changes the velocity and really it's only two modes high lob and low bullet. I have never seen any variation.

Three pass types, not two. Choosing the right pass for the right situation makes as much of an impact as reading the route and so forth.

A lot of the complaints about linebackers making "superhuman jump interceptions" come from people abusing the bullet pass. In that video my last bullet pass gets picked by the LB. However, all of my well timed touch passes hit my receiver in stride right where I want them to for a nice gain.

[hampshire2012]

Quote: Originally Posted by PGaither84

Three pass types, not two. Choosing the right pass for the right situation makes as much of an impact as reading the route and so forth. A lot of the complaints about linebackers making "superhuman jump interceptions" come from people abusing the bullet pass. In that video my last bullet pass gets picked by the LB. However, all of my well timed touch passes hit my receiver in stride right where I want them to for a nice gain.

Fascinated by this - I've often thought I'd triggered a touch pass, as you call it, but I could never do it consistently.

Would you mind explaining how you do them? Right now I can only do lobs and bullets, with a tap and a press and hold respectively.

[TNT713]

Quote: Originally Posted by craxus

Button pressure - the harder the pressure, the more velocity Button time - the longer you hold it, the lower the trajectory This please prove it. I have only hear it changes the velocity and really it's only two modes high lob and low bullet. I have never seen any variation.

There are many subtleties in Madden's passing game. On PS3 the effects are much more pronounced because they icon buttons have analog function, where the 360 does not...

Even so, there are many variations in between the highest lob and the lowest bullet. But it takes practice to throw each type of pass and poise to throw it accurately in a game situation.

But try it out... Practice throwing the same route with several varied motions on the button. You'll see the difference.

Later

[craxus]

I am on a 360 so it maybe only those to modes, but I will test very interesting. Thanks.