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Old 01-24-2011, 03:14 PM   #25
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Re: Shorter or longer animations.....

Good thread...

I'm for longer animations myself. If it presents the game better visually as it has proven in 2Ks games, I'm all for it.

Quote:
Originally Posted by LiquorLogic
You have to remember that you're critiquing a game that is almost four years old. Comparing APF's animations to M11's isn't fair. If APF 2k11 was made, who knows, those long animations might have been interruptible.

Compare Madden 08's animations to APF.
Quote:
Originally Posted by LiquorLogic
Interruptible animations are going to happen. It's not possible to rid a game of them, especially a football game, entirely. Nothing, in video games, is totally realistic. The key is to get as close to that as possible, and, as far as game-play, 2k8 has done a better job of that than Madden 11.

Had 2k11 been released, I'm sure there would be less animations that weren't interruptible.
I see this still happens. People don't seem to want 2K5/2K8 compared to the most recent edition of Madden unless it's a favorable comparison. This is not a dig at you in particular Liq. I just think it goes both ways: if we can make a laundry list of things that APF simulates better, then it's also ok to mention some of the things that Madden today does better.
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Old 01-24-2011, 04:15 PM   #26
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Re: Shorter or longer animations.....

Quote:
Originally Posted by rgiles36
I see this still happens. People don't seem to want 2K5/2K8 compared to the most recent edition of Madden unless it's a favorable comparison. This is not a dig at you in particular Liq. I just think it goes both ways: if we can make a laundry list of things that APF simulates better, then it's also ok to mention some of the things that Madden today does better.
It's like bragging about beating your little brother in basketball. You're supposed to do that. But when your little brother beats you, that's something to get excited about.

Game released a few months ago = big brother
Game released a few years ago = little brother
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Old 01-24-2011, 05:40 PM   #27
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Re: Shorter or longer animations.....

Quote:
Originally Posted by Only1LT
I don't disagree with anything you've said.

The goal is to create as close a facsimile to real life as possible, given hardware limitations and developer skill. I would agree that 2K does a better job of this than most, but I will not go so far as to say that there are no problems associated with their design choices either.

I just want to be fair.
If we want to be fair, it goes both ways. Yes, 2k's longer animations bite you in the you know what every now and again, but we can't really say 2k wouldn't have made as good of a game with shorter animations; we also can't say that EA would have done better with longer animations. It's not what you do; it's how you do it.
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Old 01-24-2011, 05:54 PM   #28
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Re: Shorter or longer animations.....

Quote:
Originally Posted by rgiles36
Good thread...

I'm for longer animations myself. If it presents the game better visually as it has proven in 2Ks games, I'm all for it.





I see this still happens. People don't seem to want 2K5/2K8 compared to the most recent edition of Madden unless it's a favorable comparison. This is not a dig at you in particular Liq. I just think it goes both ways: if we can make a laundry list of things that APF simulates better, then it's also ok to mention some of the things that Madden today does better.
I hear you, but 2k5/2k8 were made ages ago in video game years. In my opinion, Madden 11 doing something better that games than were release 6 and 3 years ago, respectively, isn't really a dig at 2k football. At this point there shouldn't be anything that Madden doesn't do better than 2k did years ago. Madden 11 should have been at least two development cycles better than APF.

If Madden 12 is finally better than APF, which is the only way I'll purchase it, I'll be happy, but I'll still expect more. Then again, I've never experience a football game better than APF, game-play wise, so maybe I won't know the difference.
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Old 01-24-2011, 06:02 PM   #29
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Re: Shorter or longer animations.....

Quote:
Originally Posted by Only1LT
Here is the thing though. Not being able to do anything until an animation finishes is not simulation either.

A player can make any move that he wants to make at anytime. Doesn't mean it will work. Doesn't mean that he won't fall flat on his ***, but he could still try to do it.

I don't like the way that Madden is designed and prefer the way that 2K is, but to say that having total control to branch out of animations is arcadey, is not being completely fair. What makes Madden arcadey, is the way that they handle their design of total control.

Players should ALWAYS be able to interrupt animations in a sports game. Making invincible animations isn't the answer to real life. The answer is making real life consequences for doing things that aren't possible, and having animations in the game that represent those consequences. I.E. allowing you to change direction when ever you want to, but having animations in the game, or done on the fly, that represent you not being able to pull off what you attempted, if this is not physically possible.

Now I'm not saying that 2K has no branching animations, or that it doesn't do a better job of representing these consequences in the game, but a reason why, not the only reason, but definitely a reason, why 2K appears to play better than Madden, is because it animates better. One reason, but not the only reason, it animates better, because of the longer animations. Again, I prefer this to Madden's design, but that's only because, as stated above, Madden gives you all the control, but none of the consequences, and none of the animations to represent those consequences.

You are right about one thing though. There is a right and wrong. The right thing is to have total control, and consequences, and a slew of animations pre-captured, or done on the fly, that represent those consequences. Neither game does this.

2K does it better, but neither does it "right".
I never implied that either 2K or Madden was correct. Both are wrong, but one is a 7 year old product while the other is current. And the one that is 7 years old used the available technologies of that time better than the one which is currently in development.

A move in the right direction is the use of animation technologies such as the ones developed by NaturalMotion to dynamically render animations at run-time and allow physics-based interaction to branch animations together.

This is why everyone was so excited about Euphoria/Endorphin when they were released.

Animations, specifically motion captured, will be required for the foreseeable future to duplicate real world complex actions. The way those animations occur in Madden is a travesty and that's what my comments were in reference to. The goal of a simulation game should be to simulate the real world product and I find it hard to believe that has been the goal of EA/Tiburon based on the product we have right now.

Also, as for this thread and many others like it.... can we stop looking to the past for answers about where this game and the sports game industry as a whole needs to be in the future? Sports gaming has been a stale product for YEARS and needs to move forward instead of reproducing past successes. Most of the advancement in the industry has been presentation focused and not focused on the actual product which they are supposed to be simulating. 2K did not produce a realistic football simulation. EA has not produced a realistic football simulation. Nobody, to my knowledge, has produced a realistic football simulation. The answer is not in the past because nobody has done it right.

Last edited by youALREADYknow; 01-24-2011 at 06:05 PM.
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Old 01-24-2011, 07:56 PM   #30
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Re: Shorter or longer animations.....

This has sparked an interesting conversation, i just assumed longer animations were the problem. But it appears that wasn't the problem, but the coding under the system is. My biggest gripe is Gang Tackling. I think its such an important factor because it works on so many levels.

The technology behind it should allow for more interaction between players right? Meaning it also help blocking and a lineman being able to interact with two defenders at the same time and just a more robust running game. Really what Madden needs is the ability to have players interact with each other more easily. 2k did a thing where running into your own blockers would simulate an animation for you to roll of of them, sometimes in madden it still feels as if theres no actual animation there that your just running into people.

Hum is a physics based engine the solution to all of this?
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Old 01-24-2011, 09:39 PM   #31
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Re: Shorter or longer animations.....

Quote:
Originally Posted by marshallfever
This has sparked an interesting conversation, i just assumed longer animations were the problem. But it appears that wasn't the problem, but the coding under the system is. My biggest gripe is Gang Tackling. I think its such an important factor because it works on so many levels.

The technology behind it should allow for more interaction between players right? Meaning it also help blocking and a lineman being able to interact with two defenders at the same time and just a more robust running game. Really what Madden needs is the ability to have players interact with each other more easily. 2k did a thing where running into your own blockers would simulate an animation for you to roll of of them, sometimes in madden it still feels as if theres no actual animation there that your just running into people.

Hum is a physics based engine the solution to all of this?
In addition to the gang tackling you speak of, they also need to improve collisions during catches. As happened to probably many of you too, there was a deep pass thrown by the CPU, and my safety hit the WR right after the ball passed him. However, since I used an animation to hit the WR, the WR started to act as if he was already hit BEFORE I even touched him. So, I got called for DEF PI. This should never happen. You're right about 1 vs. 1 collisions. All you have to do in M11 is break 2 tackles and you're guaranteed at least 10 yards. Defenders can't intervene, so having 1 tackler is the same as having 3 tackles, since the other 2 tacklers will just fall down. This is the biggest issue in the game play of madden.
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Old 01-25-2011, 07:01 AM   #32
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Re: Shorter or longer animations.....

No game comparisons in Madden or 2k forums. If you want to do that take it to this forum.
http://www.operationsports.com/forums/football-other/
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