How do you stop HB Angle/flat routes?

[TNT713]

Quote: Originally Posted by edubbs

These routes are almost impossible to defend in madden 11. Especially, with the top ranked QB's ie; Brees, Rodgers, Manning etc. Overall, the over the middle D in MAdden 11 is horrible and can be easily exploited. It's a combination of the lack of route based passing and the ability that QB's have to complete passes to receivers with their backs facing the QB. I've played against a couple of guys online who have mastered this exploit and it's nothing you can do to stop it. Either the flats or over the middle is open every time it seems, regardless of the d. The guys I've seen abuse these routes immediately drill a pass almost as soon as his qb takes the snap, and there just is not enough time for your defenders to react imo. QB's should not be able to drill a accurate pass 'right away' after taking the snap, to a receiver who has barely started their route. This has been an ongoing issue with Madden. There is really no route based passing scheme in the game, therefore users are able to complete passes to receivers who are 2 steps into their route and who are not even looking at the QB. And for some reason the receiver spotlight feature on D, is not as effective as it was in previous Maddens IMO. It's frustrating knowing exactly where your opponent is going with the ball pre-snap, and being helpless cause of the flawed passing game in Madden.

Um. No offense to you personally, but this attitude is all too common among guys that are doomed to lose. Not just today, but tomorrow as well... Players who care about playing more than making excuses will do well to disregard practically every comment above.

Folks who think this way believe that because they have trouble stopping a tactic that the AI is at fault. They never bother looking any farther to find any answers they haven't thought of already. Indeed, it is impossible to believe there are no solutions while still looking for them.

People who have this opinion are either the smartest football mind of all time, have tried all 250 defenses in every playbook with every iteration possible, AND has attempted every possible adjustment possible without a single success, OR they stop whenever the going gets rough and decide that they have done all the things necessary to make the statement...

There are answers... Seek and ye shall find. Stop looking and you won't.

Later

[Kevin McKoy]

No offense Tnt, but the guy saying it is impossible to stop is probably a sim player. There are ways to slow it down sure, like putting a fast de in man coverage or manually taking control of the de and doing it.

But that is called overcompensating on defense, and this route is not suppose to work the way it does. I saw the chargers run it against cover 2, and the inside backers shut it down, of course if Rivers threw the ball the way people do in madden, one the rb would have got hit in the back of the head with the ball or two, he would have caught it, and because he isn't even out of the backfield, would probably be stopped for a 3 yrd can probably less. But physics are at play here, and in madden they aren't. Its just that simple bro.

[TNT713]

Quote: Originally Posted by Kevin McKoy

No offense Tnt, but the guy saying it is impossible to stop is probably a sim player. There are ways to slow it down sure, like putting a fast de in man coverage or manually taking control of the de and doing it. But that is called overcompensating on defense, and this route is not suppose to work the way it does. I saw the chargers run it against cover 2, and the inside backers shut it down, of course if Rivers threw the ball the way people do in madden, one the rb would have got hit in the back of the head with the ball or two, he would have caught it, and because he isn't even out of the backfield, would probably be stopped for a 3 yrd can probably less. But physics are at play here, and in madden they aren't. Its just that simple bro.

Great response EXCEPT I don't think anyone suggested anyone use a DE in man coverage.

I suggested moving players to places they would better defend the route. Shifts are sometimes all we need to beat these type of angle routes. Proper man coverage technique, like WFColonel56 suggested, is the best defense. If you manually defend it, proper man coverage technique would have players stay inside the back so he's not open when he cuts.

Believe it or not, the AI can easily be made to defend these routes using nothing more than assignments and alignment.

The rest is just a smokescreen for 'not wanting to.' Players can overcompensate to take away anything, but overcompensating is a sign of strategic weakness.

Why commit several players to defend a play when one will usually do?

Guys who know what they are doing don't have to overcompensate... They just know how to tell their players how to play the coverage they want.

Later

[Kevin McKoy]

The fact that your not getting that the ai should pick up on it, on its own like other sports games do is my point. people throw the ball before he cuts half the time. The ai can't respond because the motion the runner takes to catch a ball he isn't ready for, is a glitch. In real life the ball would hit him in the head because it isn't a option route.

Therefore he shouldn't magically catch it. That is what I and others are talking about as well. Besides if real physics were at play, the same thing would happen to that route that happened to Darren Sproiles against the Texans, cover 2 properly run can shut it down. I didn't see the Texans shifting anybody, because there isn't a need. Its that simple, its not an issue of not wanting to, its an issue of what is suppose to happen and not.

[edubbs]

Quote: Originally Posted by Kevin McKoy

The fact that your not getting that the ai should pick up on it, on its own like other sports games do is my point. people throw the ball before he cuts half the time. The ai can't respond because the motion the runner takes to catch a ball he isn't ready for, is a glitch. In real life the ball would hit him in the head because it isn't a option route. Therefore he shouldn't magically catch it. That is what I and others are talking about as well. Besides if real physics were at play, the same thing would happen to that route that happened to Darren Sproiles against the Texans, cover 2 properly run can shut it down. I didn't see the Texans shifting anybody, because there isn't a need. Its that simple, its not an issue of not wanting to, its an issue of what is suppose to happen and not.

Exactly.

You explained the issue much better than I could.

This is why soo many people get frustrated playing Madden.

Real life x's and o's are completely thrown out the window in waaay too many instances, and the angle/flat route issue is just one example of this.

[Jarodd21]

Quote: Originally Posted by edubbs

These routes are almost impossible to defend in madden 11. Especially, with the top ranked QB's ie; Brees, Rodgers, Manning etc. Overall, the over the middle D in MAdden 11 is horrible and can be easily exploited. It's a combination of the lack of route based passing and the ability that QB's have to complete passes to receivers with their backs facing the QB. I've played against a couple of guys online who have mastered this exploit and it's nothing you can do to stop it. Either the flats or over the middle is open every time it seems, regardless of the d. The guys I've seen abuse these routes immediately drill a pass almost as soon as his qb takes the snap, and there just is not enough time for your defenders to react imo. QB's should not be able to drill a accurate pass 'right away' after taking the snap, to a receiver who has barely started their route. This has been an ongoing issue with Madden. There is really no route based passing scheme in the game, therefore users are able to complete passes to receivers who are 2 steps into their route and who are not even looking at the QB. And for some reason the receiver spotlight feature on D, is not as effective as it was in previous Maddens IMO. It's frustrating knowing exactly where your opponent is going with the ball pre-snap, and being helpless cause of the flawed passing game in Madden.

The main problem with this is All-pro. The AI is terrible because of it and your right its easy to exploit. Like TNT said there's was to adjust by manually putting players in place to defend it or slow it down but I feel your pain. There would be less complaints about this if online ranked games was played on all-madden. At least optional.. Guys will always be able to exploit the AI on all-pro with alot of these simple plays..

[TNT713]

Once again, no offense intended but some of you just might get offended...

Football is about mental and physical toughness. It's about getting up after being knocked down. Yet I've seen so many people play Madden as if laying down and staying down, mentally and physically, were a premium. I read a response earlier that puts all the onus on the AI to react and respond to a tactic - as if the human element shouldn't matter. Fact is, if you call the right defense at the right time you're still going to get beat if your players aren't in the right places to make the play.

I hate to call it a trend, but I've seen it all too often since Madden went online in '03. Before that the lightweight Madden players weren't nearly as vocal about what their weaknesses are. Nor were they so quick to blame the AI for their own failures...

Case in point: Some of the older guys may remember a tactic commonly referred to as the "Wally-B Glitch" from Madden '03. Players would motion the Flanker and snap the ball just as he got behind the TE against basic 2 Man Under coverages. The defense would swap coverages to prevent being caught in traffic - causing an OLB to defend the outside breaking receiver while the CB stayed with the inside breaking receiver...

Against 2 Man Under, the tactic was deadly. Most Madden players saw how this tactic beat basic man coverage and decided the "Wally-B" was a game breaking glitch that must be fixed immediately...

Meanwhile, smart Madden players used the other man coverage plays in the playbooks that were NOT susceptible to the Wally-B. They discovered that the coverage swap only occurs when both the CB and OLB were assigned the WR and TE respectively. No such coverage swap occurred when the OLB blitzed, played zone, or spied the QB.

Instead of whining and bellyaching all year for EA to come to the rescue and fix it, the rest of us simply called one of the other 25-30 defenses that EA had already provided. Furthermore, some players were stubborn (like myself). Not only were we going to defend the "Wally-B," we were going to do it with the very defense it was designed to beat.

I discovered that if I slide the linebackers toward the weak side, the OLB assigned to the TE would stay with the TE and the CB would stay with the WR. No manual movement required, just L1 and left on the stick... For the remainder of the year, I defended the Wally-B with the 2 Man Under with success.

Fast forward 8 years to right now... I still use what I learned in Madden '03 to ensure my man coverages work like I WANT THEM TO. So instead of looking for reasons why I can't do something, I simply find ways to do what some say is impossible because the can't see thru their own cloud of excuses...

SO.... Let's begin again.

Not only can you cover the HB angle route using man coverage, you can cover it several other ways as well. Now you guys can give me every excuse in the book - physics, defender can't react, blah, blah, blah....

All are immaterial and irrelevant to the truth... Truth is you can stop the HB angle route with a little understanding of football and how to apply that understanding to Madden.

Telling me that defending the angle route is impossible is like telling an astronaut that the world is flat.

Later

[Kevin McKoy]

Ok bro, you have your opinion man. I never said man coverage couldn't stop it, but everyone has different defensively philosophies. I have more of a Nick Saban approach.

I primarily play zone on first and second, and like to play man on third downs. And when I tell you that I have actually watched NFL games and watched defenders stop the route in zone, without any fancy adjustments and your telling me I have to do all this crap to overcompensate to stop the route.

I just respectfully disagree. Apparently is trying to fix zone coverage and assignment ai, because everyone knows you can't control all 11 players. Which means the other 10 have to help.