It seems speed is the only rating that still matters on Madden?

[bucky60]

Quote: Originally Posted by TNT713

Maybe it's time for guys who dominate the CPU with speed to step up to the next level and play against some humans. Its the only way to get the organic challenge that makes speed seem to matter less.

So here's the crutch of the problem. Play it my way or you just don't matter. Sounds pretty arrogant and selfish to me. The "your below me, I'm better than you attitude".

I want to build a franchise playing it out over many seasons. I have absolute NO interest in going online. Nor do I have the time to wait for 31 friends to be AVAILABLE to play MY offline franchise. I want to, when the mood hits me, to start the PS3 and play some of MY franchise.

I would never tell the online franchise guys that they should stop wanting online franchise improvements, that they are just playing the game wrong. I could give a rats behind about online franchise, but I'm behind those guys 100% about making improvements in those areas. Those online franchise guys deserve it. I'll be glad to post with them and help with supporting there wish lists and desires for improvements.

Your attitude about this seems incredibly arrogant and very selfish.

[Old Mr T]

Quote: Originally Posted by TNT713

But let's be realistic... EA isn't ever going to program an AI that is smarter than a human can be. If it takes me (and I think I'm a pretty smart Madden player) several games worth of reps to lock down a tactic, why should I expect the CPU to be any better? Maybe it's time for guys who dominate the CPU with speed to step up to the next level and play against some humans. Its the only way to get the organic challenge that makes speed seem to matter less. Later

I don't like playing online, I mostly play co-op Franchise with a couple of guys I've been playing with since the very first Maddens.

Speed is too much of a factor unfortunately so I'd like to see Maddens combat that gameplay weakness in the future.

I appreciate that it's less of a factor for online players like yourself, but I'd like to see it become less of a factor for offline Franchise players too.

[TNT713]

Hold up fellas... Throughout this discourse I've been 'saying' things I've never said. While I don't mind being called arrogant, I do have a problem with being called selfish WHILE being quoted and misparaphrased (is that a word?)

When did I say anything about anyone playing online? I didn't. But getting back to your point about online play... Online is obviously the most convenient way to play a human, but it's not the only way. You can invite your friends over to your place, go to their place, or meet at a neutral location like my friends and I did before I moved to Detroit.

Regardless of where you find these humans, and which mode you choose to engage in electronic football with these humans - your experience will prove that speed's seeming omnipotence is inextricably linked to the skill of the opponent you face.

The CPU AI is the lowest common denominator when it comes to skilled opponents. Whether we like this fact or not, it is true. Users could rely on the CPU to make all their play calls or they can make the proper speed adjustments on their own... I'm sure we can agree that reliance on the CPU to make the right adjustments is a recipe for failure and frustration.

Even if the AI were much better it would still never rise to the level of adequate versus a skilled player. Once we get good enough to beat the CPU, the next challenge is a human being. Whether we find them online, in our neighborhoods, or they fall out of the sky - people will always be smarter than the CPU and therefore provide a completely new challenge where speed matters far less than our ability to adjust to it.

The lesser skilled an opponent, the more likely they won't adjust to speed. Of course, that's part of what makes them lesser skilled.

Later

[bucky60]

Quote: Originally Posted by TNT713

Hold up fellas... Throughout this discourse I've been 'saying' things I've never said. While I don't mind being called arrogant, I do have a problem with being called selfish WHILE being quoted and misparaphrased

How do you miss phrase an exact quote?

This was your quote. I've also seen you in a recent thread call Madden players lazy for NOT playing a human.

Quote: Originally Posted by TNT713

Maybe it's time for guys who dominate the CPU with speed to step up to the next level and play against some humans. Its the only way to get the organic challenge that makes speed seem to matter less.

Quote: Originally Posted by TNT713

You can invite your friends over to your place, go to their place, or meet at a neutral location like my friends and I did before I moved to Detroit.

I don't have the 31 friends or the time to watch them play MY FRANCHISE every time I feel like playing MY FRANCHISE. Why do you always have such a difficult time understanding this? I don't knock you for playing online or against your buddies. But that doesn't further MY FRANCHISE one bit. What you are saying is that I HAVE TO PLAY IT YOUR WAY. That's my problems with the game's problems DON'T MATTER. If you don't like my term (the one besides arrogant) for this, then you come up with one.

Quote: Originally Posted by TNT713

Regardless of where you find these humans, and which mode you choose to engage in electronic football with these humans - your experience will prove that speed's seeming omnipotence is inextricably linked to the skill of the opponent you face.

OK. That doesn't make the CPU AI LESS BROKEN in an offline franchise. So your comment really has no relevance to this.


I'll re-post since you seem to have missed this:

Quote:

I want to build a franchise playing it out over many seasons. I have absolute NO interest in going online. Nor do I have the time to wait for 31 friends to be AVAILABLE to play an offline franchise. I want to, when the mood hits me, to start the PS3 and play some of my franchise.

[aceoye]

Quote: Originally Posted by TNT713

Hold up fellas... Throughout this discourse I've been 'saying' things I've never said. While I don't mind being called arrogant, I do have a problem with being called selfish WHILE being quoted and misparaphrased (is that a word?) When did I say anything about anyone playing online? I didn't. But getting back to your point about online play... Online is obviously the most convenient way to play a human, but it's not the only way. You can invite your friends over to your place, go to their place, or meet at a neutral location like my friends and I did before I moved to Detroit. Regardless of where you find these humans, and which mode you choose to engage in electronic football with these humans - your experience will prove that speed's seeming omnipotence is inextricably linked to the skill of the opponent you face. The CPU AI is the lowest common denominator when it comes to skilled opponents. Whether we like this fact or not, it is true. Users could rely on the CPU to make all their play calls or they can make the proper speed adjustments on their own... I'm sure we can agree that reliance on the CPU to make the right adjustments is a recipe for failure and frustration. Even if the AI were much better it would still never rise to the level of adequate versus a skilled player. Once we get good enough to beat the CPU, the next challenge is a human being. Whether we find them online, in our neighborhoods, or they fall out of the sky - people will always be smarter than the CPU and therefore provide a completely new challenge where speed matters far less than our ability to adjust to it. The lesser skilled an opponent, the more likely they won't adjust to speed. Of course, that's part of what makes them lesser skilled. Later

wow great argument..couldnt of said it better I agree with every point you've made..thing is...it wont fly in OS lol..but again great post.

[TNT713]

bucky,

We don't know each other beyond what we read in the forums. But c'mon man.

I have never said anyone is lazy because they don't play humans. However, I have said there are SOME lazy people that don't play humans. Ordinarily, I wouldn't assume that this applies to anyone specific but is merely a generalization about parts of the Madden community. Judging from your response toward this comment that wasn't directed at you specifically, it hit close to home for you. There were other groups as well that were less offensive, even honorable, that you could have included yourself in instead.

I assure you, nothing I say is personal. This is the result of more than 15 years of studying online pro football communities. And before you say Madden hasn't been online that long (you'd be right), Madden wasn't the first online football game. But I have been studying the Madden community specifically for the past 8 years.

But that's not what this thread was about. We were talking about whether speed is too effective a weapon because it seems to be the only rating on that matters on Madden. How this got to be about you and how you want to play your franchise is beyond me. But hey, I'm selfish I guess.

Think of the NG CPU as your little brother... He'd be almost 7 years old now. It's like your mad at him for not being a better challenge despite the fact he hasn't even hit puberty yet.

To get this back on track: I'll restate my original point and depart this thread forever.

The link between the SPD rating and it's effectiveness in games is directly proportional to the skill level of the players. Folks who believe Speed is the only rating that matters should locate better opponents, if they seek a solution. A better CPU opponent or better human opponent.

However you play your franchise... Bump the skill level up and you may see less speed. If you're already playing on All-Madden, max out your sliders... If you're one of those guys that refuses to play Madden against a human being, there's only so much challenge you're going to be able to get from the CPU. I'm sorry if that's hard to bear, but 30 years from now it will still be true.

Once the CPU is no longer a challenge, the next step is playing a human. Unfortunately, there's no substitute CPU2 that can come in to bench the starter. Nothing arrogant is intended about the statement. Nothing against how you play the game. It's just a FACT. The more skilled you are, the less of a challenge the CPU will be until it's no challenge at all.

The FIRST skill a Madden player learns is maximizing speed... But don't blame the AI because it can only reach a limited level of awareness of how it's being attacked. Humans don't share these limits...

SO... If you seek a challenge, it's available. But if you're adamant about NOT playing humans and still need the CPU to react to speed in realistic ways - you must wait for the CPU to mature.

By my count, the NG AI will be 16 and able to drive in about 9 more years... Maybe then it will know more about dealing with speed.

Later

[bucky60]

Quote: Originally Posted by TNT713

This is the result of more than 15 years of studying online pro football communities. And before you say Madden hasn't been online that long (you'd be right), Madden wasn't the first online football game. But I have been studying the Madden community specifically for the past 8 years.

And what at all does this have to do with the CPU AI not countering speed very well making speed to effective? So to what you said, I say, so what.

Quote: Originally Posted by TNT713

But that's not what this thread was about. We were talking about whether speed is too effective a weapon because it seems to be the only rating on that matters on Madden. How this got to be about you and how you want to play your franchise is beyond me. But hey, I'm selfish I guess.

Really? You don't understand? The CPU AI doesn't counter speed like it should, making speed to effective. You keep saying speed isn't too effective, I keep telling you where it is too effective. That's where my offline franchise comes up. How do I make this clearer to you, you just don't seem to get it, or you just refuse to get it.

Quote: Originally Posted by TNT713

The link between the SPD rating and it's effectiveness in games is directly proportional to the skill level of the players. Folks who believe Speed is the only rating that matters should locate better opponents, if they seek a solution. A better CPU opponent or better human opponent.

OR we should be getting EA/TIB to FIX THIS. That's the part that you don't seem to let get pounded into your head. How many times does one have to say this to you? If something in the game isn't right, THEN FIX IT. Don't tell me I have to accept playing the game the way you do. Not sure why you can't agree that if the game has a problem, FIX IT.

Quote: Originally Posted by TNT713

However you play your franchise... Bump the skill level up and you may see less speed. If you're already playing on All-Madden, max out your sliders... If you're one of those guys that refuses to play Madden against a human being, there's only so much challenge you're going to be able to get from the CPU. I'm sorry if that's hard to bear, but 30 years from now it will still be true.

I want to get somewhat realistic statistical results for both the human and CPU. I don't care what skill level that is, PRO, ALL PRO, or ALL MADDEN. But moving sliders may make things more of a challenge, but then realism is lost and skewed stats are generated. How about this as a solution. HAVE EA/TIB FIX THE PROBLEMS IN THE GAME. Why are you SO AGAINST THAT?

Quote: Originally Posted by TNT713

Once the CPU is no longer a challenge, the next step is playing a human. Unfortunately, there's no substitute CPU2 that can come in to bench the starter. The more skilled you are, the less of a challenge the CPU will be until it's no challenge at all.

And why shouldn't the CPU AI be able to bench a poorly playing starter? Why shouldn't the CPU AI be smarter? Make better adjustments to things like speed? Why does someone like you settle for the CPU AI putting a LB on a speed receiver? How can someone like you be so against EA/TIB making the CPU AI a better opponent?

Quote: Originally Posted by TNT713

The FIRST skill a Madden player learns is maximizing speed... But don't blame the AI because it can only reach a limited level of awareness of how it's being attacked. Humans don't share these limits...

And why do you just accept that the CPU AI HAS TO BE SOOOOOO LIMITED? IT DOES NOT HAVE TO BE.

[quote=TNT713;2042731581]
SO... If you seek a challenge, it's available. But if you're adamant about NOT playing humans and still need the CPU to react to speed in realistic ways - you must wait for the CPU to mature. [quote=TNT713;2042731581]

It's not the CPU that needs to mature, the CPU is mature enough. It's the CPU AI that need to mature. AND THAT IS WHAT WE ARE ASKING FOR, that you seem to be so against. We are asking for speed to matter less, not be so dominating, to be more realistic.

Quote: Originally Posted by TNT713

By my count, the NG AI will be 16 and able to drive in about 9 more years... Maybe then it will know more about dealing with speed.

You don't need a next gen AI to deal with speed, it could be done with the current AI code being modified (fixed). I wrote much more complex simulators 25 years ago.