This man speaks the truth about people's expectations of football games

[Tyrant8RDFL]

Quote: Originally Posted by Skyliner80

The truth is we'll never be satisfied with our Sports games.

This is far from the truth my friend.

I know im not alone when I mentioned this , but I'm very satisfied with the following sports titles.

MLB The Show11, NBA2k11, NHL11, Fifa 11, and NCAA12. Now the choices might differ, but there are sports titles out there that many are satisfied with.

Madden unfortunately was getitng better than went south for about 7 years. This is what is causing all of the frustration.

Now Madden 12 and going foward hopefully can change that. Time will tell.

[Only1LT]

Quote: Originally Posted by Skyliner80

I wasn't gonna post but this just made me wonder how many people have actually played/bought both games from 2000-2005. There are many people I know that think Madden/EA pioneered some of the things that are being shown in todays games because they've never played the 2K series. Some 2Kers think nothing EA does is worth playing which is obviously not true. The truth is we'll never be satisfied with our Sports games. I think many of the us think companies ignore what other companies have done but wasn't there a video of Ian Cummings using APF2k8 as an example of proper O-line play? That's what we want and I think it happens more than we think. It's great to innovate but sometimes it takes one company to learn from the other to try and make the game as close to 'sim' as possible.

Other than Fever (never owned any MS console) I've played just about every console Football game ever made, if not every (would have to really think about it). At the risk of sounding like an EA hating agenda poster, I'd sincerely be hard pressed to name areas that Madden currently does better than other football games. I'm sure that there are, and I used to easily be able to recognize and recite them, but it's gotten harder these past years.

As for the APF2K comment about line play, that is what I want, but that doesn't exist in Madden. There is a difference between the AI being smart enough to block the right people, which Madden does a pretty good job of, and the game being sophisticated enough to have proper animations and calculations so that after the AI actually blocks who they are supposed to block, that the actual act of blocking plays out realistically. The latter is not present in Madden.

It is more than just getting rid of suction, which, yes, there was some suction and morphing in 2k too, though not as bad. But the blocks in Madden are still of the variety where the lineman get engaged and then stand stiff as a board as one until the D Lineman does a swim move and then goes, not around, but THROUGH the O Lineman, while the O Lineman stumbles forward off balance, and the D lineman goes forward and tackles you. There is no riding D lineman out of the way. No flow of blocks. Nothing to really read as a runner. You just get to the line, see 2 lineman engaged, almost perfectly perpendicular to the LOS, and then it's a guessing game as to whether you should try and pass the block to the right or left. There is nothing visually that gives you any indication really of which way to go. Just eeenie meanie. But again, the way that the defenders shed blocks in this game by going in a straight line through the blocker with a swim, and not around, makes choosing a side moot for the most part anyway. It's more about when will the defender become un-engaged rather than reading and setting up blocks.

In short, Tiburon has done a really good job with the blocking logic, but in all the other, equally important aspects of blocking, this title is light years (that's a distance btw, not slice of time for those that don't know) away from being where it needs to be.

As far as never being satisfied with a sports game, many sports games, past and present have satisfied me. If Tiburon ever got serious about making gameplay as realistic as possible, and got rid of their "the user needs to be in control at all times" philosophy, Madden would be able to count themselves in that camp as well. It wouldn't need to be perfect either, they just need to put an emphasis on making the physical aspects of the game, more realistic than they are. Which isn't very, in my opinion.

[Brando70]

I think another issue is that there is a martyrdom aspect with 2k5. What was a very good but still quite flawed game became elevated to this mythological status because it was killed off by EA's NFL exclusivity agreement.

The NFL 2k series was always pretty dazzling. It remains the biggest head-turner of a sports gaming debut I've ever seen -- when I first played 2k on the Dreamcast at E3 all those years ago, I was blown away by how alive the game felt. There was an organic feeling that Madden didn't and still doesn't really have.

However below the shiny surface, the series always had its share of significant problems. The debut had severe issues with being able to run the ball. 2k1 was great, but there were definite growing pains when the series migrated to the XBox with 2k2 and 2k3.

With 2k4, the series again surged ahead, but still there were pretty big issues, with overpowered running backs and CPU passing AI that almost never went deep leading the pack. I played several seasons of a franchise in 2k4, and I could count on one hand the number of times I saw the AI throw a pass that traveled further than 20 yards in the air.

When 2k5 dropped, I eagerly scooped it up and initially was in love. Head-to-head, it was great, and the online league I was in at the time is still one of the best gaming experiences I've ever had. But after a while I found that the single-player experience actually took a step backward from the previous year due to DB AI that gave up too many big plays and a franchise mode that was ruined by excessive bugs and poor GM AI. I found myself splitting time that year, playing my 2k5 online franchise but going back to Madden for offline gaming.

Then the EA NFL deal happened. I was extremely disappointed and I wanted to see 2k and EA continue to push each other.

However, at the time of 2k5, I would have been hard pressed to say it was the best sports games around. I love football, but there is no way I could have put NFL 2k5 ahead of games like High Heat, ESPN MLB, NBA Inside Drive, or Winning Eleven. There were too many flaws and, despite a lot of realistic touches, a lot of arcade-like qualities to the game (the powerup move system being the most egregious). Even the presentation, while featuring a great halftime and post-game show, bombarded your ears with recycled audio that had been in the game for years. I have to agree with the OP and the podcaster that NFL 2k5 was hardly a sim-type of game, even if it did get a lot of things right about the NFL.

Flash forward to 2011, and the landscape is about the same. When it comes to realism, NFL games can't touch other sports like baseball and basketball. Things would probably be different had NFL 2k continued, but then again, the lone 2k football entry in the interim, 2k8, exhibited a lot of issues just like previous 2k titles had.

So while I hate the exclusivity deal and also thought Madden took a big step back on this generation of consoles, I've never quite been able to understand the extreme devotion to NFL 2k5. It was cool, it was fun, but it was hardly the pinnacle of realism in sports gaming even when it was released. If anything, the saddest aspect of football gaming to me isn't EA's dominance. It's that no developer has ever matched the realism of the Front Page Sports series so many years ago.

[BestServedCold]

Quote: Originally Posted by Skyliner80

I wasn't gonna post but this just made me wonder how many people have actually played/bought both games from 2000-2005. There are many people I know that think Madden/EA pioneered some of the things that are being shown in todays games because they've never played the 2K series. Some 2Kers think nothing EA does is worth playing which is obviously not true. The truth is we'll never be satisfied with our Sports games. I think many of the us think companies ignore what other companies have done but wasn't there a video of Ian Cummings using APF2k8 as an example of proper O-line play? That's what we want and I think it happens more than we think. It's great to innovate but sometimes it takes one company to learn from the other to try and make the game as close to 'sim' as possible.

I love MLB the Show. I loved NFL 2k5 when it came out.

[spankdatazz22]

Quote: Originally Posted by Only1LT

In short, Tiburon has done a really good job with the blocking logic, but in all the other, equally important aspects of blocking, this title is light years (that's a distance btw, not slice of time for those that don't know) away from being where it needs to be.

Agree w/your entire post. Tiburon's band-aid approach to the OL/DL and lack of attention overall has been extremely disappointing. It starts with the inability of the OL to do free-flowing double-teams (poor player interaction). Albert Haynesworth consistently handled by one offensive lineman? Speed rushers like Dwight Freeney (and the entire OL/DL) do the same patty-cake interaction on near every play? Can't do twists/stunts on defense unless it's a situation the game has pre-programmed for? Lack of drive blocking/rushes; instead there's that silly bull-rush animation they initially hyped in NCAA until people clowned it. Fortunately doesn't seem to be present in the final game. DE's don't speed rush, so their band-aid is to have OL disengage if the QB drops back a certain distance.

Their inattention to such a key part of the game has been extremely disappointing and should get called out more than it does. Unfortunately most don't come in with that expectation in the first place, so they continue to skate by on what it is.

[Tyrant8RDFL]

Quote: Originally Posted by Brando70

I think another issue is that there is a martyrdom aspect with 2k5. What was a very good but still quite flawed game became elevated to this mythological status because it was killed off by EA's NFL exclusivity agreement. The NFL 2k series was always pretty dazzling. It remains the biggest head-turner of a sports gaming debut I've ever seen -- when I first played 2k on the Dreamcast at E3 all those years ago, I was blown away by how alive the game felt. There was an organic feeling that Madden didn't and still doesn't really have. However below the shiny surface, the series always had its share of significant problems. The debut had severe issues with being able to run the ball. 2k1 was great, but there were definite growing pains when the series migrated to the XBox with 2k2 and 2k3. With 2k4, the series again surged ahead, but still there were pretty big issues, with overpowered running backs and CPU passing AI that almost never went deep leading the pack. I played several seasons of a franchise in 2k4, and I could count on one hand the number of times I saw the AI throw a pass that traveled further than 20 yards in the air. When 2k5 dropped, I eagerly scooped it up and initially was in love. Head-to-head, it was great, and the online league I was in at the time is still one of the best gaming experiences I've ever had. But after a while I found that the single-player experience actually took a step backward from the previous year due to DB AI that gave up too many big plays and a franchise mode that was ruined by excessive bugs and poor GM AI. I found myself splitting time that year, playing my 2k5 online franchise but going back to Madden for offline gaming. Then the EA NFL deal happened. I was extremely disappointed and I wanted to see 2k and EA continue to push each other. However, at the time of 2k5, I would have been hard pressed to say it was the best sports games around. I love football, but there is no way I could have put NFL 2k5 ahead of games like High Heat, ESPN MLB, NBA Inside Drive, or Winning Eleven. There were too many flaws and, despite a lot of realistic touches, a lot of arcade-like qualities to the game (the powerup move system being the most egregious). Even the presentation, while featuring a great halftime and post-game show, bombarded your ears with recycled audio that had been in the game for years. I have to agree with the OP and the podcaster that NFL 2k5 was hardly a sim-type of game, even if it did get a lot of things right about the NFL. Flash forward to 2011, and the landscape is about the same. When it comes to realism, NFL games can't touch other sports like baseball and basketball. Things would probably be different had NFL 2k continued, but then again, the lone 2k football entry in the interim, 2k8, exhibited a lot of issues just like previous 2k titles had. So while I hate the exclusivity deal and also thought Madden took a big step back on this generation of consoles, I've never quite been able to understand the extreme devotion to NFL 2k5. It was cool, it was fun, but it was hardly the pinnacle of realism in sports gaming even when it was released. If anything, the saddest aspect of football gaming to me isn't EA's dominance. It's that no developer has ever matched the realism of the Front Page Sports series so many years ago.

Excellent post.

I share your same exact thoughts with 2k5, and even at that time many did not hold this title as the Holy Grail of Football.

I remember the DB A.I. being a issue. Slants,drags, outs and corner routes where money with this title. I did a league back then and we had to put a rule in for how often you can call a corner route. Simply because it was that effective. The success rate was 99.5% . It was crazy.

2k5 became the football of a life time when Madden got the deal, and did not produce. They point out tings presentation wise and animation wise that kills madden even till this day, but yes I agree 2k5 was far from solid. It was fun but not solid.

Just like you and it was funny that you mentioed this, but I also played 2k offline and Madden offline. One did things better than the other.

Again great post I feel what you mentioned is 100% accurate.

[Skyliner80]

Quote: Originally Posted by BestServedCold

I love MLB the Show. I loved NFL 2k5 when it came out.

Yeah, you and a couple of others. Small sample size. I loved NFL2K5 but I always found something that could be fixed. The same with the rest of the sports games. That's what I meant by "..will never be satisfied. ". There will always be people harping about something wrong with their game which is ok because at the end of the day, these are just videogame representations that can never be 100% sim.

That being said, there is nothing wrong with trying to get it to 99.9%.

[Smoke6]

Quote: Originally Posted by Skyliner80

Yeah, you and a couple of others. Small sample size. I loved NFL2K5 but I always found something that could be fixed. The same with the rest of the sports games. That's what I meant by "..will never be satisfied. ". There will always be people harping about something wrong with their game which is ok because at the end of the day, these are just videogame representations that can never be 100% sim. That being said, there is nothing wrong with trying to get it to 99.9%.

I think the biggest misunderstanding here is that people on the EA wagon think that the 2K player or fans, think that 2K was a "perfect" game. When in fact, they're (me too) are just stating that the upsides of both games should be "incorporated" into one instead of it being as if EA has a chip on its shoulder, thus leaving those aspects in which 2K did right, alone altogether.

Thats just my take on all this, nothing concrete but it conveys my points of interest in this thread. So lets move on from things we have already discussed to death and figure out a respectful solution to the problem and be done with it!