Player Potential

[Argooos]

Quote: Originally Posted by bucky60

I strongly disagree with this. A soft cap is just like not having a cap. It does absolutely nothing, and makes things very unrealistic. Real life doesn't have soft caps. In real life, everyone has a potential that you can not exceed, you can only reach. I think the game needs to add the variable you mentioned if it wants to realistically simulate real life. Add the progression variables you mentioned and show the gamer perceived ratings and potential, and hide the actual.

I think you're far too caught up on the word "potential:, which is just a word chosen to reflect a ratings cap. Real life potential and Madden potential are two completely different things.
A soft cap actually is more realistic because real human beings don't have hard limits to what they can achieve. Yes, there are certain limits in terms of our talents and innate abilities, but there is actually no limit to what we can learn, for example. The reason a soft cap is realistic though is that up to a certain point people can perform well with ease, but once they reach their natural limit, they must work harder and harder to continue to progress. That is a soft cap. You or I could be an NFL quarterback, but we would have to work longer and harder at it than people who are more athletically gifted.

[bucky60]

Quote: Originally Posted by xblake16x

Randomizing potential would actually be a great idea.

I think it's a good idea as an option. Because I want the rosters to be as accurate as humanly possible, including potential, knowing that it can only be a developers best guess. That's what the NFL license is for.

Quote: Originally Posted by xblake16x

After the first season, more than 97% of the players were there to begin with, you are acting like its brand new rosters season after season.

If every team keeps 5 or so draft picks, a URFA or two, and a FA or two, it doesn't take long to turn over a roster.

Quote: Originally Posted by xblake16x

I dont understand why Donny is the end all, sole decider for potential...

Because he is the game developer doing all the research. If not him, then someone else on the development team. If you want to, then edit the rosters yourself. In order to have a realistic progression system, with a capped potential, then somebody has to make the rosters.

Quote: Originally Posted by xblake16x

it would be great to have it randomized to some point.

it would be great as on option, so those that want to keep things realistic, with a roster that most accurately reflects the real NFL, can.

Quote: Originally Posted by xblake16x

Maybe keep the 1st rounders to low B to high A. 2nd rounders mid C to A. 3rd - low C to A. and so on.

Even with an option to randomize potential, this is still highly unrealistic. You lose the first round busts this way. Not everyone in the first round has good to great potential. They are only perceived to have great potential. There should be some average and low potentials in the first round. There should be some high potentials in the late rounds. This is what the Madden pre-created draft classes give us. Something that is more realistic.

Quote: Originally Posted by xblake16x

What i also hate, which is highly unrealistic is the fact that no matter who it is that has A potential (as long as they are young) they will progress.

Most young players with a lot of potential DO progress well in the NFL. How is this unrealistic?

Quote: Originally Posted by xblake16x

Cam Newton throws 20 picks 3 straight years, he will be a 90 in no time. I hate that...

If you have a highly rated Cam Newton throwing 20 picks, then there is something wrong with the game engine not reflected a players ratings. If Cam Newton is throwing 20 picks as a mid rated rookie and progresses well, how is this surprising or something to hate. Young players with a lot of potential usually do progress during the off season, even if they don't have great yours statistically. This is still highly realistic whether you hate it or not. A stats based progression system, with unlimited potential doesn't allow for this realism.

Quote: Originally Posted by xblake16x

if attributes are based off of statistics, year after year, than in game progression/evaluation, whatever you want to call it, has to have some sort of statistical basis.

Which ends up being highly unrealistic and arcady.

Quote: Originally Posted by xblake16x

If attributes were based on 'soft' data (not hard) than i can see your point where we have a perfectly fin system as is. We dont right now though, not close.

And the game should be taken forward and enhanced to add this extra data and algorithms to become more realistic, and not taken backwards and become more unrealistic with an unlimited potential, stats based progression system. Why do you want to take things backwards instead of moving the franchise forwards?

[bucky60]

Quote: Originally Posted by Argooos

I think you're far too caught up on the word "potential:, which is just a word chosen to reflect a ratings cap. Real life potential and Madden potential are two completely different things.

And why is that? Did you get some inside info from game developers or something? Potential IS a ratings cap. A ratings cap is really the ONLY way to simulate real life potential, since in real life potential is only as accurate as the one trying to quantify somebody's actual potential. Not sure how you get Madden potential is different than real life potential.

Quote: Originally Posted by Argooos

A soft cap actually is more realistic because real human beings don't have hard limits to what they can achieve.

Yes we do. It's just very hard to quantify this since much of this is very difficult to measure. People have a moving perceived potential, not a moving actual potential.

Quote: Originally Posted by Argooos

Yes, there are certain limits in terms of our talents and innate abilities, but there is actually no limit to what we can learn, for example.

Yes there are limits. There are concepts that some people can grasp that others just can not. No matter how much time and study goes into it. Some people can retain much more than others. Some people can retain more in certain subjects than others can. Some people have photographic memories, some need to re-look things up that they already learned at one time. Everyone has different degrees of how much they can understand in certain topic, and how much they can retain in a certain topic.

Quote: Originally Posted by Argooos

The reason a soft cap is realistic though is that up to a certain point people can perform well with ease, but once they reach their natural limit, they must work harder and harder to continue to progress. That is a soft cap.

The closer one comes to their potential, the harder they have to work to improve. There is nothing soft about it.

Quote: Originally Posted by Argooos

You or I could be an NFL quarterback, but we would have to work longer and harder at it than people who are more athletically gifted.

This is just flat out wrong. Only a select few can be an NFL QB no matter how hard or long they work at it. Are you really serious with this statement? Anyone can be an NFL QB? This just blows me away.

[Argooos]

Quote: Originally Posted by bucky60

And why is that? Did you get some inside info from game developers or something? Potential IS a ratings cap. A ratings cap is really the ONLY way to simulate real life potential, since in real life potential is only as accurate as the one trying to quantify somebody's actual potential. Not sure how you get Madden potential is different than real life potential.

Let me ask you this: If the developers had chosen to name their ratings cap something else, say Talent for example, would you still be making the same arguments? My point is that you're treating Madden "potential" as if it were real life potential, which is a word given to an abstract concept. In reality there is no quantifiable number that predetermines at what point we can no longer progress in our abilities. Potential is actually just a word used to describe people estimates of what they think a person is capable of. Treat Madden "potential" as what it actually is - don't treat it as if it were real life potential.

Quote:

Yes we do. It's just very hard to quantify this since much of this is very difficult to measure. People have a moving perceived potential, not a moving actual potential.

There's no such thing as actual potential. There is only perceived potential. The only way in which we have hard limits on what we can accomplish is in hindsight. When you're talking about future performance, you can't put hard limits on it except in the form of a guess.

Quote:

Yes there are limits. There are concepts that some people can grasp that others just can not. No matter how much time and study goes into it. Some people can retain much more than others. Some people can retain more in certain subjects than others can. Some people have photographic memories, some need to re-look things up that they already learned at one time. Everyone has different degrees of how much they can understand in certain topic, and how much they can retain in a certain topic.

Anyone can grasp any concept if they devote enough time and effort to doing so. You're confusing a lack of effort with a lack of ability.
It is also possible for people to improve their memory and to improve their cognitive abilities if they are willing to put in the work to do so.
The fact that people have natural limits to these abilities is a good argument for some form of a cap in player ratings. However, the fact that with enough hard work people can overcome these deficiencies shows that such a cap should not be a hard one. The world is full of examples of people who have progressed beyond what people thought was a hard cap on their abilities.

Quote:

The closer one comes to their potential, the harder they have to work to improve. There is nothing soft about it.

You're assuming here that potential actually exists here though, which it doesn't - it's just a subjective concept that only appears to exists when you look at things in hindsight.

Quote:

This is just flat out wrong. Only a select few can be an NFL QB no matter how hard or long they work at it. Are you really serious with this statement? Anyone can be an NFL QB? This just blows me away.

Okay, I'll rephrase. If you or I had from an early age devoted every waking hour of every day trying to become an NFL quarterback, we could very likely have made ourselves good enough to do so. There are of course limits which could not be overcome, like certain disabilities, and there are things that would make our "potential" extremely low, but with enough hard work then yes anyone can be an NFL QB.

[Richieh]

Quote: Originally Posted by Argooos

Okay, I'll rephrase. If you or I had from an early age devoted every waking hour of every day trying to become an NFL quarterback, we could very likely have made ourselves good enough to do so. There are of course limits which could not be overcome, like certain disabilities, and there are things that would make our "potential" extremely low, but with enough hard work then yes anyone can be an NFL QB.

No, we couldn't. It's a hard truth to take, but natural talent, aptitude and athletic ability mean far more than hard work. Yes, players need to work hard, but the talent and athleticism are a pre-requisite.

[xblake16x]

Where do you think talent comes from?

[Richieh]

Quote: Originally Posted by xblake16x

Where do you think talent comes from?

Genetics, luck, god (if you're religious) work, coaching, diet, genetics and luck again.

[Argooos]

Quote: Originally Posted by Richieh

No, we couldn't. It's a hard truth to take, but natural talent, aptitude and athletic ability mean far more than hard work. Yes, players need to work hard, but the talent and athleticism are a pre-requisite.

You do realize that athleticism can be increased through training, right? Same with talent.
If someone naturally sucks at drawing, for example, but they work every day all day for many years with someone teaching them how to draw, they will get pretty damn good at it. I'm not saying they will become a famous artist, but they could probably make a living at drawing.