Player Potential

[havokeff]

Quote: Originally Posted by Dwaresacksqb

Pre determined potential is very unrealistic.

And yet the REAL NFL does this everyday.

Quote:

Putting the cap on players makes me get rid of players I would normally enjoy playing as because I know he will never amount to anything. People playing the game look right towards potential now and let it be the determining factor in whether or not to play someone. It was never like this before in past maddens.

This is a problem with you and stems from Master Chief Syndrome. Not every player is going to be a superstar, no matter how much playing time they get. People like you can't accept that and don't understand that the NFL is FULL of C, D and even F "potential" players that can contribute and contribute well.

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How on earth could a 6'6 275 pound defensive end who put up crazy numbers in college get a high draft grade for good reason and be a c potential....LMAO because that's realistic right?

Happens all the time. Vernon Gholston is a good example. The only problem is that when he first got drafted, Madden would have given him an A potential. They operate under your faulty logic of if he was good in college, he must be good in the NFL.

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In fact if a player goes in the first round it's because teams and scouts believe they have a load of potential. So what's realistic about giving a player a cap on how good they could become?

This is patently false. If you have watched any draft in the last 15 years, you will constantly hear scouts and talking heads go on and on about "Upside" Vs "Ready to Go Day One". There are a lot of players that can play in the NFL as rookies. That in no way means that they are going to get better. Many players peaked in college, and while it is enough to get them drafted and on the field, that doesn't mean that they are going to blossom into a HoF player. While someone may take a guy in the 4th round that has all the physical tools, but none of the knowhow, yet once he learns, he starts progressing in the NFL.

The problem is, most teams and coaches can't wait for "upside" and have to go for the guys they think can play day one. It's why people slide because of injuries or character issues.

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I Find it absolutely absurd to think that we can't have realistic progression in the game without a potential cap on every single player already determining who is going to progress well and who is not. That's not fun and is no where near accurate. As much as Moore screws it up anyway... "BECAUSE NOBODY KNOWS JUST WHAT A PERSONS LIMITS ARE" why on earth would I want that type of cap on my players.

Because despite you wanting a team full off 90 rated players, it is what is realistic. It simulates the UNKNOWN of rookies that have never played a down in the NFL. It is how you get Ryan Leafs and Jamarcus Russels. It is how you get Tom Bradys and Joe Montanas.

[bucky60]

Quote: Originally Posted by Dwaresacksqb

Pre determined potential is very unrealistic.

No it's not urealistic It's how the real world works.

Quote: Originally Posted by Dwaresacksqb

Putting the cap on players makes me get rid of players I would normally enjoy playing as because I know he will never amount to anything.

Has nothing to do with simulating potential being unrealistic. We should be enhancing the potential so that you don't see the players actual potential. Hide the actual potential and only show the gamer a perceived potential, a best guess potential but your GM, Coach, and Scout evaluators. Make the potential system even more realistic. Don't remove it and make the game more unrealistic.

Quote: Originally Posted by Dwaresacksqb

People playing the game look right towards potential now and let it be the determining factor in whether or not to play someone. It was never like this before in past maddens.

So enhance the potential system so that you don't see it and only see a perceived potential. The real NFL get these reports from Scouts, GM's, and Coaches. Only make the perceived as accurate as the evaluators are good at evaluating. Since that's what actually happens in the NFL. You don't know a persons actual potential. You have evaluators best guesses at it.

Quote: Originally Posted by Dwaresacksqb

How on earth could a 6'6 275 pound defensive end who put up crazy numbers in college get a high draft grade for good reason and be a c potential....LMAO because that's realistic right?

Yes it really is. Cause you do have high round draft busts. You do have guys in the actual draft that have a high perceived potential when the have a much lower actual potential. This is exactly why potential is essential FOR REALISM. You are just wrong about potential being unrealistic.

Quote: Originally Posted by Dwaresacksqb

In fact if a player goes in the first round it's because teams and scouts believe they have a load of potential. So what's realistic about giving a player a cap on how good they could become?

They BELIEVE he has a load of potential. MANY high first round draft picks end up not having the potential they are believed to have. So it is VERY REALISTIC to give the draft busts a lower potential cap. This makes things more realistic.

Quote: Originally Posted by Dwaresacksqb

I Find it absolutely absurd to think that we can't have realistic progression in the game without a potential cap on every single player already determining who is going to progress well and who is not.

If you want realism it's essential, not absurd. It's essential for the draft, and for progression to give us draft busts. And life does help determine who progresses and who doesn't. The game should simulate this in a realistic manner.

Quote: Originally Posted by Dwaresacksqb

That's not fun and is no where near accurate. As much as Moore screws it up anyway... "BECAUSE NOBODY KNOWS JUST WHAT A PERSONS LIMITS ARE" why on earth would I want that type of cap on my players.

Just because it's not FUN for you, doesn't make it unrealistic. To me, realism is fun, arcady is not.

And nobody knows just what someone's elusiveness is. I want the game go simulate how the real world works, I don't want to MIMIC exactly what will happen in real life. The game not being able to look into the future has absolutely nothing to do with simulating REALISM.

[Redwolf]

Very well said, bucky60 - I couldn't agree more. You are absolutely bang on regarding potential & real life - some don't get it, but you do.

[Argooos]

Okay, bucky60, I'm done with responding to everything you write. You consistently intentionally misinterpret my arguments, ignore my questions, and repeat yourself ad nauseam as if saying something over and over again makes it more valid.

I am going to try to explain my position as clearly as I can.
I feel that the current progression system is unrealistic.
I feel this way because I do not think that NFL players have predetermined caps on their overall progression. I think that they have caps on the development of certain physical abilities, but not in the development of certain mental skills.
I also feel that the current system is unrealistic because we as simulated general managers can see the potential of every player on our roster. This gives us information that real NFL GMs do not have. Estimated potentials I feel would be meaningless, since every 1st round pick would have a high estimated potential. Where a player ends up in their progression should be a mystery, just like in real life.
In my ideal system, the formula for progression would be balanced in such a way that players would progress and regress in the same proportions and in the same general way that real NFL players progress and regress. A simple way to see if the formula was working right would be to compare overall ratings changes from year to year in franchise to the ratings changes from year to year in editions of Madden. If you are seeing similar numbers and types of changes then the system is working properly.
Such a system would not need a potential rating. In my mind the purpose of the potential rating is to make sure that the overall ratings of players in the league are distributed in a realistic fashion over time. If the system did this on it's own, you would no longer need the potential rating. Without the potential rating, any player could develop into a star and any player could regress into a scrub. How that happens would be up to the player.
My system would include a slider that allows the user to control how realistic the progression system is. At one end of the slider would be progression driven primarily by coaching (including the team system) and player personality (work ethic, intelligence) as well as age and experience. Users could still control player progression by signing the right players for the right systems, and by managing practices and player personalities. At the other end of the slider would be stats-based progression, where how the player performs on the field would determine how they progress. This would be the least realistic progression system, but some people don't care much about realism in progression. Ideally, people would be able to set the slider to any point in between these two extremes to customize the progression system to their liking.

[havokeff]

Quote: Originally Posted by Argooos

I feel this way because I do not think that NFL players have predetermined caps on their overall progression. I think that they have caps on the development of certain physical abilities, but not in the development of certain mental skills.

Are you F-ing kidding me? Vernon Gholston, again. Three years of all the physical tools in the world. No one questions his speed, or strength or agility. But no matter what Rex Ryan did , clearly recognized as the BEST defensive coach in the league and a master of getting players to play up to and over their potential, could not get this guy a single sack. You know why? Because some players are just never going to get better than they are. Their football skills are never going to progress.

Quote:

I also feel that the current system is unrealistic because we as simulated general managers can see the potential of every player on our roster. This gives us information that real NFL GMs do not have. Estimated potentials I feel would be meaningless, since every 1st round pick would have a high estimated potential. Where a player ends up in their progression should be a mystery, just like in real life. In my ideal system, the formula for progression would be balanced in such a way that players would progress and regress in the same proportions and in the same general way that real NFL players progress and regress. A simple way to see if the formula was working right would be to compare overall ratings changes from year to year in franchise to the ratings changes from year to year in editions of Madden. If you are seeing similar numbers and types of changes then the system is working properly. Such a system would not need a potential rating. In my mind the purpose of the potential rating is to make sure that the overall ratings of players in the league are distributed in a realistic fashion over time. If the system did this on it's own, you would no longer need the potential rating. Without the potential rating, any player could develop into a star and any player could regress into a scrub. How that happens would be up to the player. My system would include a slider that allows the user to control how realistic the progression system is. At one end of the slider would be progression driven primarily by coaching (including the team system) and player personality (work ethic, intelligence) as well as age and experience. Users could still control player progression by signing the right players for the right systems, and by managing practices and player personalities. At the other end of the slider would be stats-based progression, where how the player performs on the field would determine how they progress. This would be the least realistic progression system, but some people don't care much about realism in progression. Ideally, people would be able to set the slider to any point in between these two extremes to customize the progression system to their liking.

So instead of a potential rating, you want a potential slider that controls the rating, thereby having the GM, you, still aware of potential, which you say is unrealistic. Ok dude.

[Argooos]

Quote: Originally Posted by havokeff

Are you F-ing kidding me? Vernon Gholston, again. Three years of all the physical tools in the world. No one questions his speed, or strength or agility. But no matter what Rex Ryan did , clearly recognized as the BEST defensive coach in the league and a master of getting players to play up to and over their potential, could not get this guy a single sack. You know why? Because some players are just never going to get better than they are. Their football skills are never going to progress.

Actually, Vernon Gholston is a perfect is example of someone I would give low scores in personality ratings (like work ethic). See, you don't need a potential rating to account for guys like Gholston. In real life he didn't progress because of something in his personality. It wasn't some magical force that stopped his progression - it was something in his personal choices or his personality.

Quote:

So instead of a potential rating, you want a potential slider that controls the rating, thereby having the GM, you, still aware of potential, which you say is unrealistic. Ok dude.

Did you even read what I wrote? PROGRESSION slider, not potential slider. I'm advocating a system that doesn't even have potential, so explain to me how the heck the GM, me, is aware of something that wouldn't even be in the game? Try reading before responding next time, dude.

[Dwaresacksqb]

Quote: Originally Posted by havokeff

And yet the REAL NFL does this everyday. This is a problem with you and stems from Master Chief Syndrome. Not every player is going to be a superstar, no matter how much playing time they get. People like you can't accept that and don't understand that the NFL is FULL of C, D and even F "potential" players that can contribute and contribute well. Happens all the time. Vernon Gholston is a good example. The only problem is that when he first got drafted, Madden would have given him an A potential. They operate under your faulty logic of if he was good in college, he must be good in the NFL. This is patently false. If you have watched any draft in the last 15 years, you will constantly hear scouts and talking heads go on and on about "Upside" Vs "Ready to Go Day One". There are a lot of players that can play in the NFL as rookies. That in no way means that they are going to get better. Many players peaked in college, and while it is enough to get them drafted and on the field, that doesn't mean that they are going to blossom into a HoF player. While someone may take a guy in the 4th round that has all the physical tools, but none of the knowhow, yet once he learns, he starts progressing in the NFL. The problem is, most teams and coaches can't wait for "upside" and have to go for the guys they think can play day one. It's why people slide because of injuries or character issues. Because despite you wanting a team full off 90 rated players, it is what is realistic. It simulates the UNKNOWN of rookies that have never played a down in the NFL. It is how you get Ryan Leafs and Jamarcus Russels. It is how you get Tom Bradys and Joe Montanas.

Dude when did I say I wanted a team full of 90 some players? Y try and work around everything I had to say. How u going to tell me what I want when all I said is the potential rating is in realistic and therefor they should get rid of it for something else that ISN'T BROKEN. Some of you people will are a little nuts. All I'm saying is THEY DO NOT KNOW HOW MUCH POTENTIAL SOMEONE HAS AND IT HURTS THE QUALITY OF THE GAME BY PUTTING THESE RESTRICTIONS ON PLAYERS. it's nothing like the other skills in the game that they could review on tape or weigh/measure. THEY HAVE MESSED UP AND SWITCHED thousands of players "potential" rating and I'm sick of DONNY MOORE TELLING ME HOW GOOD A PLAYER I MIGHT LIKE COULD BE IN MY GAME. Everytime I make a argument about this I get a few crazy people on here start twisting my words like they are trying to win some debate when all I wanted was to provide operation sports with my 2 cents on this hot topic.

[DJDReW3102]

why would anyone ever think the player potentials are anything but subjective?


Thats why you can load your team up with rookies (most of them will never be any sort of star) sim forward a few years, and all of a sudden they are freaks of nature....progression really doesn't happen like this in real life, and the minute you stop thinking of Madden in real life terms, your expectations come down and all of a sudden you aren't as disappointed.

By year 3 in franchise mode, every team has a 82 OVR or better QB, some of which improve greatly year over year.........this isn't realistic. Not everyone gets better. Some people come into the league and you see immediately that how good they are now is an indicator of how they will always play.

Also , some players are dreadfully lazy, some players are tireless in weight room, film sessions, etc. There is none of this accounted for in any formula or equation that EA can offer us. Frankly it would be a little daunting to even undertake such detail....

With that being said,
Let's face it, this game and their entire system is a broken, horrible mess and they don't have the incentive$ to improve on ...you know, regular football stuff.


As long as people drop crazy money into MUT, the core gameplay and these progression issues will not change or improve.

What ever happened to week to week progression? This was in Madden more than 6 years ago and now we get nothing. Why? Why should they? They are a company that is concerned about their bottom line, not about us nitpicking how their nonsensical "formulas" may or may not work.