Do I have an legitament gripe?

[roadman]

Quote: Originally Posted by bfindeisen

Completely ridiculous analyses. Gronk had more TD's in his rookie year than Finley in 3 years. Gronk had one of the greatest rookie season for a TE in NFL history, easily surpassing all the names on your list in their first seasons (statistically). Up to this point, he has had statistically, the best start for a TE in NFL history. The numbers say you're the one(s) who are delusional. And he passes the eye-test as well...guy blocks, runs well, has a huge catch radius, great hands, and catches well in traffic. Is Finley even an average blocker? Gronk is above average in every measurable category for a TE. I'll give you that D's do not gameplan for Gronk, but largely due to the fact that its impossible, because if you focus on Gronk, the Patriots have so many other offensive options (making his production all the more impressive). The Packers have almost as many offensive weapons, yet no where near the same production from Finley... oh and Gronk plays twice as many snaps.

Maybe you missed the the part where Finley has been on the field for 1/2 of his career. I could score more TD's in my first year than Finley in 3 yrs.

I don't go out of my way to compare healthy TE's vs injury prone TE's. Huge difference, of course the numbers would play out for a healthy TE. There is no way you can measure production numbers between the two.

Good for Gronk, he is durable.

Between Patriot and Packer fans, it's all subjective anyway. Fans outside the teams are better to judge.

[bfindeisen]

Quote: Originally Posted by roadman

Maybe you missed the the part where Finley has been on the field for 1/2 of his career. I could score more TD's in my first year than Finley in 3 yrs. I don't go out of my way to compare healthy TE's vs injury prone TE's. Huge difference, of course the numbers would play out for a healthy TE. There is no way you can measure production numbers between the two. Good for Gronk, he is durable. Between Patriot and Packer fans, it's all subjective anyway. Fans outside the teams are better to judge.

Another great analysis. Guy is injured all the time...therefore he's better; or wait, you can't compare them. Clever. Lol. I always thought durability was a valued measurable...

I was toting Gronk stats more in comparison to the other premier TE's in the league (the ones that play). And his stats blow all their rookie seasons away. Let's not get bogged down in FACTS, though...

[roadman]

Quote: Originally Posted by bfindeisen

Another great analysis. Guy is injured all the time...therefore he's better; or wait, you can't compare them. Clever. Lol. I always thought durability was a valued measurable... I was toting Gronk stats more in comparison to the other premier TE's in the league (the ones that play). And his stats blow all their rookie seasons away. Let's not get bogged down in FACTS, though...

Then edit Gronk to 100 on durability if YOU feel it's a valuable measurable.

Maybe if Griffey Jr wasn't injury prone, he would be the all-time HR leader. Yeah, let's continue to ignore the facts.

[bfindeisen]

Quote: Originally Posted by roadman

Then edit Gronk to 100 on durability if YOU feel it's a valuable measurable. Maybe if Griffey Jr wasn't injury prone, he would be the all-time HR leader. Yeah, let's continue to ignore the facts.

Haha...what are you talking about. You just made my point exactly and didn't even realize it. I wouldn't raise Gronk's durability...I would lower Finley's, which should, in essence, lower his OVR, but that's a different debate. Your Griffey example is the perfect example I was looking for to demonstrate my point. Based on your analyses, Finley would be an All-Time great TE if it weren't for injury...yet even when on the field, his production hasn't ranked among the top TE's in the league. In fact, the only point you're really making is that Finley maybe has better potential than other TE's. Other than that, there is not a single measurable characteristic that points to Finley being elite TE, whereas I just gave you several reasons over a 19 game sample why Gronk's production alone makes him one of the top TE's in NFL history.

[KBLover]

Quote: Originally Posted by bfindeisen

I'll give you that D's do not gameplan for Gronk, but largely due to the fact that its impossible, because if you focus on Gronk, the Patriots have so many other offensive options (making his production all the more impressive). The Packers have almost as many offensive weapons, yet no where near the same production from Finley...

Perhaps the Packers don't use their TE as much as the Pats do. It could have less to do with skill and more to do with play design/scheme.

Also, perhaps Aaron Rodgers prefers hitting his wide outs, or they are higher on his progressions in most plays.

Patriots are aggressive with their TEs. That will give them more opportunities right there.

The point about the durability is that you can't take counting stats and compare them across an uneven amount of games.

If a guy who plays 200 games can't outproduce someone who's played 130 games, then that says more about the guy with 200 games...and if he did, well...he SHOULD. He has 70 more games.

What are these players' rate stats?

Finley (throwing out his rookie year where he started just 1 game) has 52 ypg and 60 ypg in the last two seasons. Gronkowski has 34 ypg and so far has 80 ypg in 2 games.

Too me, it's too early to tell. In the first year, Gronkowski showed he's a red zone target. Otherwise, he's not much in the game plan as a receiver. That was Aaron Hernandez's role. So far this year, he's been a weapon, but Brady also has been hot, even for Tom Brady. Finley has shown, so far, he's more of a receiving threat...when he's healthy.

Of course, being a red zone target is as much scheme and play design as it is the player himself producing. Pats go to Gronk/the TE - Packers may do more fades, quick slants, quick hits. Few of those go to the TE.

Pats don't have big WR. Branch is small and quick. Welker is small and quick. Edelman is smallish and also more of a route runner. Gronk's the most physically imposing presence they have - even more than Hernandez - and that can be highly important that close to the end zone where routes are less effective and throwing the ball high is often safest. Chad Johnson could emerge as a weapon in this regard. Might allow the fade to be an option if nothing else. If so, that might cut into Gronk's production...through no fault of his own. That's why stats can NOT be the only consideration to ratings.

[roadman]

Quote: Originally Posted by bfindeisen

Haha...what are you talking about. You just made my point exactly and didn't even realize it. I wouldn't raise Gronk's durability...I would lower Finley's, which should, in essence, lower his OVR, but that's a different debate. Your Griffey example is the perfect example I was looking for to demonstrate my point. Based on your analyses, Finley would be an All-Time great TE if it weren't for injury...yet even when on the field, his production hasn't ranked among the top TE's in the league. In fact, the only point you're really making is that Finley maybe has better potential than other TE's. Other than that, there is not a single measurable characteristic that points to Finley being elite TE, whereas I just gave you several reasons over a 19 game sample why Gronk's production alone makes him one of the top TE's in NFL history.

Yeah, your right, 80 plus receptions in 17 games started with over 1200 yds receiving is very mediocre for a TE and much worse than the Gronk.

19 games in and Gronk is one of the top TE's in NFL history? Really. TD's are the only way to measure a TE's greatness over 19 games?

19 game sample size is almost as small as Finley's 17 games sample size.

Thanks KB, much better that what I said!!

[KBLover]

Quote: Originally Posted by bfindeisen

In fact, the only point you're really making is that Finley maybe has better potential than other TE's. Other than that, there is not a single measurable characteristic that points to Finley being elite TE, whereas I just gave you several reasons over a 19 game sample why Gronk's production alone makes him one of the top TE's in NFL history.

Neither one of these guys is Tony Gonzalez or anything of that caliber. Gronk's only played 18 games. WAY too early to say he's "one of the best in NFL history". Same for Finley, even if he was healthy every game.

If/When Gronk can prove OVER TIME that he can consistently play at this level for, say, seven or eight years, then we can start considering his possible place in all-time NFL history.

You're taking a start of a career and projecting it over the next decade or more into a career that matches these 18 games. No one knows what might happen to him (or the team) in the next 10 years.

[bfindeisen]

Quote: Originally Posted by KBLover

Perhaps the Packers don't use their TE as much as the Pats do. It could have less to do with skill and more to do with play design/scheme. Also, perhaps Aaron Rodgers prefers hitting his wide outs, or they are higher on his progressions in most plays. Patriots are aggressive with their TEs. That will give them more opportunities right there. The point about the durability is that you can't take counting stats and compare them across an uneven amount of games. If a guy who plays 200 games can't outproduce someone who's played 130 games, then that says more about the guy with 200 games...and if he did, well...he SHOULD. He has 70 more games. What are these players' rate stats? Finley (throwing out his rookie year where he started just 1 game) has 52 ypg and 60 ypg in the last two seasons. Gronkowski has 34 ypg and so far has 80 ypg in 2 games. Too me, it's too early to tell. In the first year, Gronkowski showed he's a red zone target. Otherwise, he's not much in the game plan as a receiver. That was Aaron Hernandez's role. So far this year, he's been a weapon, but Brady also has been hot, even for Tom Brady. Finley has shown, so far, he's more of a receiving threat...when he's healthy. Of course, being a red zone target is as much scheme and play design as it is the player himself producing. Pats go to Gronk/the TE - Packers may do more fades, quick slants, quick hits. Few of those go to the TE. Pats don't have big WR. Branch is small and quick. Welker is small and quick. Edelman is smallish and also more of a route runner. Gronk's the most physically imposing presence they have - even more than Hernandez - and that can be highly important that close to the end zone where routes are less effective and throwing the ball high is often safest. Chad Johnson could emerge as a weapon in this regard. Might allow the fade to be an option if nothing else. If so, that might cut into Gronk's production...through no fault of his own. That's why stats can NOT be the only consideration to ratings.

Totally agree about stats...but I think my overall point is being missed; you can't just throw out Finley's rookie season. When we're talking about value, isn't it relevant Gronk produced at a high level in his rookie year (when historically TE's do not perform well in their rookie season; look at the rookie years for the best TE's in the league)? Isn't it relevant that Gronk plays virtually every offensive snap because he's an above-average blocker, as-well as an elite Red Zone player (led the NFL in Red Zone production in 2010 > http://aol.sportingnews.com/nfl/stor...eiving-prowess)? If I'm giving a player an overall value rating, I have to take those things into account; there is no way an oft-injured, receiving TE should be rated better OVR than Gronk.