Is there any information on what will be adjusted via TUNERS as opposed to patches?

[Nani]

After playing through a season of franchise on default All-Madden untouched (all USER/USER games) I fully agree with you SP. It's my brother's franchise and he's playing as the Vikings so a fairly good team to illustrate the issues with D-line play as I see them.

We've seen virtually no pressure from the RE's first off. This was present last year too I believe but seeing Jared Allen play through the first 8 games of the season without providing an ounce of pressure or a single sack summed it up pretty well. I've read through some previous threads stating that the problem is finesse moves being completely ineffective but I can honestly say that Peppers is the only guy that's caused problems as a RE.

LE's seem much more effective to me. He switched Allen over to the other side after the first half of the season I mentioned above to see if it made any difference and lo and behold he puts up 7 sacks in 8 games and rips tackles apart with much more regularity. One thing I'd say though is that a disproportionate amount of them probably came on rollout PA plays but it's better than nothing at all at this point.

Obviously the other side of it is the DT play. Kevin Williams had about 12 sacks on the season and every single one of them involved the animation where the DT sort of sweeps the guard to one side right off the bat and blazes past him untouched. KW's one of the better DT's on the game but I've seen mediocre guys rack up 2-3-4 sacks in one game a fair bit now for and against me and it doesn't feel or look right.

Got to say I'm not sure how the line play is on All-Pro since I haven't played too much on it this year but as far as All-Madden goes some tuning would go a long way I think. As it is the pressure is a bit backwards and it's hard to tell the difference between average ends and elite ends a lot of the time in my opinion.

[GiantBlue76]

Quote: Originally Posted by CRMosier_LM

4 leagues all of them have DE and OLB leading the league in sacks. I can screen shot for you if you want?!? Actually I will do one better and see if Derek can pull the sack totals for the top 20 players thus far through all online franchise games syncd. I'm not tryig to be a smart alec in any way shape or form but all I can really tell you is that Im not seeing it. The numbers he pulls should give a good example as there should be around 2 million games syncd (rough estimate).

Sorry, but I and a boat load of others don't agree with you. I wasn't going to mention this, but I had a conversation with a developer who acknowledged that the problem with finesse moves is the animations take too long. That's why the power moves are so effective. If you have 4-3 DEs with high finesse moves, they are not very effective unless you blitz. Getting sacks and getting pressure are not the same thing. I don't care about sacks, I care about getting in there or being a factor. It's not completely broken, but DTs are WAY too effective at getting pressure. I should say, DTs with high strength and POWER MOVES. In my league and a few others who I have friends running, the sack leaders are 95% DTs and the numbers are ridiculous. I think you are going overboard with trying to defend the game when in this case it's not implemented properly. I could probably get 1 sack per game with Justin Tuck and that's a high amount of sacks, but I don't care about that. The 35 other plays he's a complete non-factor. I shouldn't have to blitz to free him up, he's a top 5 DE in the league. He should be more of a factor, not just a one play factor.

[CRMosier_LM]

Quote: Originally Posted by Senator Palmer

Any time something in the game is not working to my satisfaction, I always assume that it is something that I am not doing right. I am always quick to ignore the overreactions, and cries of "it's broken", and just keep plugging away. When this game came out it was you, and I think one other poster in the first "Defensive End pressure" thread who said that the lack of edge pressure from the defensive ends was not a problem. I took that as I need to keep working. Well, I have played this game consistently since release day and tried everything in the arsenal to get the ends to pressure properly, scoured message boards for tips. I've used the "edge rush" mechanic, as the other poster who agreed with you posted a vid of it working. It sends the ends up field as they always do, but it sends the DTs out too wide, and the interior of the pocket doesn't collapse consistently, so every just gets pushed out wide. I've tried spreading the line. Spreading the line in conjunction with edge rush. Tried leaving the line adjustments alone. I tried mugging the LOS. I went to the 3-4. Changed up my coverages. Played better situational ball to take away quick stuff. Worked harder to learn the zones, and how to pass off receivers to buy time. Got better at man coverage with my LB. Now the CPU always gets pressure on me when I'm on offense, but nothing provides the consistent pressure from my elite ends that it should. The only time I see my CPU-controlled Defensive Ends work free is if they are over the TE. Now I can get pressure. I can get the ends free with blitzes, but just sending the straight front 4? No. I was on the other side of the argument when the game came out, but straight up, this is an issue. It's not a problem that only effects a few people. It's not just a few panicked posters around here, even though there are more than a few threads on the issue filled with disparate voices all in agreement. Pasta Padre noted it in his review, heck even TNT, the most passionate Madden gamer you'll find walking God's green earth, acknowledges he doesn't expect much from his front 4. I am an impartial observer here. I'm not someone who'll say the game is broken just because I am lacking skill in a certain area. I have seen defensive line pressure properly tuned - last year's NCAA out of the box was beautiful - and what I'm seeing in Madden is not it. The game works so well in many areas, so I'll agree that there is no need for wholesale changes, but this needs tuning.

These types of posts are honestly what I love to see! Too many people fail to acheivements something on this game (or any game) and are always quick to blame the game and never take any responsibility for their own part in the situation. So thank you very much, it is awesome to see someone who is trying to improve an area they are lacking!

However... Im not speaking of a 4 man rush. You cannot realistically send 4 men vs the offenses 5 or 6 blockers and expect to get pressure. It doesn't happen often in Madden or the NFL minus a screw up in blocking assignments. Any football coach will tell you that. Yes if the QB sits back there long enough eventually one of your guys will get there and get the coverage sack but realistically it won't happen often. Expecting to get consistent pressure from a 4 man rush even with Peppers at end is nonsensical. Most passing plays in the NFL have 6 blockers even if one of them is a back or te left in to chip the end before going into their routes. Me ends and outside linebackers get mega pressure because I force them into a two man game in concert with each other.

[CRMosier_LM]

Quote: Originally Posted by tazdevil20

Sorry, but I and a boat load of others don't agree with you. I wasn't going to mention this, but I had a conversation with a developer who acknowledged that the problem with finesse moves is the animations take too long. That's why the power moves are so effective. If you have 4-3 DEs with high finesse moves, they are not very effective unless you blitz. Getting sacks and getting pressure are not the same thing. I don't care about sacks, I care about getting in there or being a factor. It's not completely broken, but DTs are WAY too effective at getting pressure. I should say, DTs with high strength and POWER MOVES. In my league and a few others who I have friends running, the sack leaders are 95% DTs and the numbers are ridiculous. I think you are going overboard with trying to defend the game when in this case it's not implemented properly. I could probably get 1 sack per game with Justin Tuck and that's a high amount of sacks, but I don't care about that. The 35 other plays he's a complete non-factor. I shouldn't have to blitz to free him up, he's a top 5 DE in the league. He should be more of a factor, not just a one play factor.

It's not about agreement, either you want the concrete undeniable stats or you don't? You may be correct... I haven't seen the overall numbers, all I can speak to is my personal experiences in the leagues I am involved in and the stats that come from it. but I can get you the stats from over a million online franchise games... That should tell the story don't you think?

[CRMosier_LM]

Quote: Originally Posted by tazdevil20

Sorry, but I and a boat load of others don't agree with you. I wasn't going to mention this, but I had a conversation with a developer who acknowledged that the problem with finesse moves is the animations take too long. That's why the power moves are so effective. If you have 4-3 DEs with high finesse moves, they are not very effective unless you blitz. Getting sacks and getting pressure are not the same thing. I don't care about sacks, I care about getting in there or being a factor. It's not completely broken, but DTs are WAY too effective at getting pressure. I should say, DTs with high strength and POWER MOVES. In my league and a few others who I have friends running, the sack leaders are 95% DTs and the numbers are ridiculous. I think you are going overboard with trying to defend the game when in this case it's not implemented properly. I could probably get 1 sack per game with Justin Tuck and that's a high amount of sacks, but I don't care about that. The 35 other plays he's a complete non-factor. I shouldn't have to blitz to free him up, he's a top 5 DE in the league. He should be more of a factor, not just a one play factor.

I'm not defending the game lol, I replied to the statement that said dt always lead the league In sacks and you get no pressure from de or olb. That's it. That's defending the games i have seen played and have been a part of. You say you shoukdnt have to blitz to get pressure, so a 4 man rush should get constant pressure vs 5 or 6 blockers... That's fine but its reverse logic.

[Big FN Deal]

Quote: Originally Posted by CRMosier_LM

I'm not defending the game lol, I replied to the statement that said dt always lead the league In sacks and you get no pressure from de or olb. That's it. That's defending the games i have seen played and have been a part of. You say you shoukdnt have to blitz to get pressure, so a 4 man rush should get constant pressure vs 5 or 6 blockers... That's fine but its reverse logic.

Gotta disagree with you there. It is the ideal intention of every 4-3 defense to pressure the QB with just the front 4, to allow the other 7 defenders to limit passing windows. There are teams that do this consistently when healthy and the NY Giants are one such team.

Here are some articles discussing front 4 pressure:

http://www.bleedinggreennation.com/2...thout-blitzing "The biggest problem with the defense in the later Jim Johnson years was their inability to get sacks without bringing one of JJ's many exotic blitzes. Plus, if I may dare to criticize the great JJ, he did seem to blitz even more often than he had to. So as the Eagles have dialed back their blitzes and added better pass rushers, we're seeing them now generate pressure without needing to rush extra guys. These are some more interesting findings from the previously referenced Keating column.
Since 2009, just a touch over half of the Eagles sacks have come when they rushed four or less passers. On Sunday, the Eagles registered five sacks and only one came as a result of a blitz. Two of those sacks came from Jason Babin, who it turns out, is quite good at getting sacks without a blitz. Last year, he had 9.5 of his 12.5 sacks when the Titans only rushed 4 or fewer.
That bodes very well for this defense at least as far as the pass goes. Combine the ability to get to the QB without bringing extra blitzers with the combo of Nnamdi Asomugha, Asante Samuel and DRC roaming the secondary... and that is dangerous. Now if they could shut down the run, we might really have something here. "



http://www.bearsbeat.com/2011/09/21/...ackers-092511/

http://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com...kes-me-uneasy/

[CRMosier_LM]

Quote: Originally Posted by Big FN Deal

Gotta disagree with you there. It is the ideal intention of every 4-3 defense to pressure the QB with just the front 4, to allow the other 7 defenders to limit passing windows. There are teams that do this consistently when healthy and the NY Giants are one such team. Here are some articles discussing front 4 pressure: http://www.bleedinggreennation.com/2...thout-blitzing "The biggest problem with the defense in the later Jim Johnson years was their inability to get sacks without bringing one of JJ's many exotic blitzes. Plus, if I may dare to criticize the great JJ, he did seem to blitz even more often than he had to. So as the Eagles have dialed back their blitzes and added better pass rushers, we're seeing them now generate pressure without needing to rush extra guys. These are some more interesting findings from the previously referenced Keating column. Since 2009, just a touch over half of the Eagles sacks have come when they rushed four or less passers. On Sunday, the Eagles registered five sacks and only one came as a result of a blitz. Two of those sacks came from Jason Babin, who it turns out, is quite good at getting sacks without a blitz. Last year, he had 9.5 of his 12.5 sacks when the Titans only rushed 4 or fewer. That bodes very well for this defense at least as far as the pass goes. Combine the ability to get to the QB without bringing extra blitzers with the combo of Nnamdi Asomugha, Asante Samuel and DRC roaming the secondary... and that is dangerous. Now if they could shut down the run, we might really have something here. " http://www.bearsbeat.com/2011/09/21/...ackers-092511/ http://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com...kes-me-uneasy/

And how many of those blitzes had lb/s showing blitz to force an lineman to commit to hit and there for allow 1 on 1 matchup across the line or a mismatch? And you are right, teams with a stellar secondary are able to get away with blitzing less due to extraordinary coverage in the secondary causing coverage sacks... Just as I said above. But that is neither here nor there, its basically subjective.

The issue is someone stating that dts get way more sacks/pressure in every game/league and it needs immediate fixing. When the numbers show different that is just not the case. It comes down to the users ability and knowledge and that correlates to what result is produced in the game. In the games I play, if I had to pick one side of the issue (most of my opponents would agree thus far), my ends are way overpowering as they get about 4 sacks per game and hit the qb while throwing another 4 times atleast. My dts average a sack every 2 or 3 games. And no I'm not using some beast of a team. I am the Browns as always and my ends are Jabaal Sheard and Everett Brown (free agent signing), my lbs are Wimbley (VIA trade) and Gocong. And these are user vs user games.


I cannot upload the screen shots from my phone but I will when I am at my laptop tomorrow.

[Senator Palmer]

Thanks for the acknowledgement CRMosier, appreciate it. But unless my eyes have been fooling me for the past few years, I have seen multiple teams in the NFL attack passers with only 4, and have big success with it. The Vikings a few seasons ago led the league in sacks with 44, yet were at the bottom in blitz percentage. The Colts almost exclusively send 4. The vast majority of their sacks and pressure comes from their base rush. They beat six all the time and it didn't all come from mugging the line of scrimmage.

Right now the for Giants, Eagles, and Vikings are in the top 5 for sacks with 21, 18, and 17 respectively. All three of them rely on the 4 man rush to create consistent pressure -- only blitzing sparingly on passing downs. The Giants are the only ones I know use a lot of mugging the at the line.

Don't know how much spare time you've got but here's Freeney's sacks from 2010. None of them had more than 4 coming. My elite ends don't shrink the pocket like this...