Remember where we came from?

[GiantBlue76]

Quote: Originally Posted by TNT713

Me, annoying and irritating? Really? Honestly, I'd prefer if they skipped a year working on the fluff and worked on what really mattered. Otherwise we'll have another year where we get hand towels instead of what we REALLY WANT. You think I'm annoying, what about seeing the same errors on Madden every year because the devs are chasing their tails 'innovating' new stuff instead of perfecting the old stuff. That's annoying. Seriously, nice graphics are nice to look at. But if you gave me choice between a football game that played perfectly out of the box but had a ball that looked like a telephone (let's go with the pulse dialing rotary type) and one that looked great and played poorly - I can't lie, I'd take phone ball. Feel free to scroll past, skip altogether, or add me to your ignore list. I promise I won't be offended. If you don't, I promise you will continue to be annoyed. I understand. And those settings would be nice. Except, getting those setting means adding something else that may not work well enough to make the retail version in a 9month development cycle. They also will require time, money, and people to be diverted from other pressing issues... Seriously, how much better can player models get? How much more detail do we need in a stadium? Does the sky really need to look better? Do we really need 5 seconds of cut scenes after every play? Those are nice touches for some people, but I doubt very seriously that anyone is playing specifically for those reasons. I also doubt anyone has ever purchased Madden with the intention of playing a mode that has never been on the game. Where we differ are in the most pressing issues... That's what these discussions are for. Later

This is something we agree on for sure. I think all of the presentation and other things are nice - or "fluff" as you referred to them, but for me it's all about the actual gameplay. I'm interested in PLAYING football, not watching or playing a RPG. That was why I thought Head Coach was such a great idea. I also enjoy that aspect very much, but I think if I want to actually PLAY, then the football on the field is THE MOST IMPORTANT. If Madden had crappy presentation and there wasn't so much focus on facemasks and hand towels, but the gameplay on the field was incredible, I would be buying it up on day one every year. I want real football, that's the most important thing. If the gameplay sucks (and it has for a long time), but the graphics and presentation are ok, it doesn't make the game any better. I never played 2k football for the presentation, although it was outstanding, I played it because the gameplay was much more realistic (in my opinion). The football was better. If I want arcade football, I'll play NFL blitz. In my NFL game I want realistic player movement, interaction and go figure... I want all of the actual NFL rules in the game. Imagine that...

[GiantBlue76]

Quote: Originally Posted by kjcheezhead

Not to mention EA pays for at least a portion the check that gets written to the NFL every year by dipping into development funds. If it wasn't for that, the team wouldn't have to choose between fixing old issues,working on things like commentary, or adding new/deeper game modes. The license hurt more than just the competition when it was signed. I wish more madden fans could recognize this.

I've posted on this many times. To EA, from a business standpoint, their heavy "investment" in Madden was the license. To their bottom line, Madden is costing an *** load of money. However, most of that money is not put into the development and innovation of the game. It's to pay the NFL.

In reality, having the exclusive license is really dumb. EA should just tell the NFL they don't want to pay it anymore. There are no more companies who are going to be able to make a formidable NFL game with so many years gone by unable to do so. EA is paying a hefty price for nothing.

[TNT713]

Quote: Originally Posted by tazdevil20

I've posted on this many times. To EA, from a business standpoint, their heavy "investment" in Madden was the license. To their bottom line, Madden is costing an *** load of money. However, most of that money is not put into the development and innovation of the game. It's to pay the NFL. In reality, having the exclusive license is really dumb. EA should just tell the NFL they don't want to pay it anymore. There are no more companies who are going to be able to make a formidable NFL game with so many years gone by unable to do so. EA is paying a hefty price for nothing.

Recently, due to various events related to the Madden community I've had to research several topics up to and including the terms for NFL licensed products. Exclusive deal or no - EA still has to pay the NFL for the licensing and royalties on every sale. Paying a little extra to ensure there will be no competitors makes good business sense. In addition, EA got a break this summer with the lockout looming.

With all that though, I too thought "Head Coach" was a great idea. But Game Play is so important that a game without game play isn't going to sell when it competes head-to-head with Madden's Franchise mode.

Regarding the exclusive deal being a mistake... I'm not in agreement. I feel that the original dev teams opted to take NG Madden in a new direction. The WRONG DIRECTION. It just so happened that it happened immediately after the exclusive deal and took another 3 years to get back on track. Madden 12 might have been here in '09 if not for the back tracking that ultimately put the series 6 years behind where it would have been.

That's why I hope the new team doesn't "Ortiz it up"

LOL

Later

[GiantBlue76]

Quote: Originally Posted by TNT713

Recently, due to various events related to the Madden community I've had to research several topics up to and including the terms for NFL licensed products. Exclusive deal or no - EA still has to pay the NFL for the licensing and royalties on every sale. Paying a little extra to ensure there will be no competitors makes good business sense. In addition, EA got a break this summer with the lockout looming. With all that though, I too thought "Head Coach" was a great idea. But Game Play is so important that a game without game play isn't going to sell when it competes head-to-head with Madden's Franchise mode. Regarding the exclusive deal being a mistake... I'm not in agreement. I feel that the original dev teams opted to take NG Madden in a new direction. The WRONG DIRECTION. It just so happened that it happened immediately after the exclusive deal and took another 3 years to get back on track. Madden 12 might have been here in '09 if not for the back tracking that ultimately put the series 6 years behind where it would have been. That's why I hope the new team doesn't "Ortiz it up" LOL Later

The only thing I disagree on here is the fact that having the exclusive license gave them the freedom (and arrogance) to take the game in whatever crappy direction they wanted. This was due to the fact that there are no other alternatives when it comes to NFL football games. Without having a competitor, they were free to be as lazy or incompetent as they wanted. They succeeded in excelling at both. Madden on this generation of consoles has been a colossal failure and an embarrassment to the development team and the sports gaming community. Just wait until the next gen Madden comes out. The first topic of any article written about Madden will undoubtedly start with something like, "... after the disaster that was made of the madden franchise on the previous generation, the new generation brings some...".

It's a proven fact that in the capitalistic system, competition brings lower prices and higher quality. That is a fact, not an opinion. It's no different here. I don't agree that it was coincidental that Madden was ruined at the same time the exclusive license was inked. I'm not sure why anyone tries to stick up for it. It's not like it would take your game of choice away if it didn't exist.

Madden is a tolerable game because the expectations for it have dropped to below sea level. The improvements are so small and miniscule, that when they do anything to the game it gets people crazy. Then the developers get angry because they want this huge pat on the back. If I were a member of the 2k basketball or MLB show development teams, I would be laughing daily at the Madden guys. I really would. It's not any easier to build those sports games than it is a football game. Those are just excuses. Honestly, I didn't even think Madden 10 was good. In fact, I thought it was terrible. However, it was far better than the pile of crap they put out in the 4 iterations before it.

[TNT713]

Quote: Originally Posted by tazdevil20

The only thing I disagree on here is the fact that having the exclusive license gave them the freedom (and arrogance) to take the game in whatever crappy direction they wanted. This was due to the fact that there are no other alternatives when it comes to NFL football games. Without having a competitor, they were free to be as lazy or incompetent as they wanted. They succeeded in excelling at both. Madden on this generation of consoles has been a colossal failure and an embarrassment to the development team and the sports gaming community. Just wait until the next gen Madden comes out. The first topic of any article written about Madden will undoubtedly start with something like, "... after the disaster that was made of the madden franchise on the previous generation, the new generation brings some...". It's a proven fact that in the capitalistic system, competition brings lower prices and higher quality. That is a fact, not an opinion. It's no different here. I don't agree that it was coincidental that Madden was ruined at the same time the exclusive license was inked. I'm not sure why anyone tries to stick up for it. It's not like it would take your game of choice away if it didn't exist. Madden is a tolerable game because the expectations for it have dropped to below sea level. The improvements are so small and miniscule, that when they do anything to the game it gets people crazy. Then the developers get angry because they want this huge pat on the back. If I were a member of the 2k basketball or MLB show development teams, I would be laughing daily at the Madden guys. I really would. It's not any easier to build those sports games than it is a football game. Those are just excuses. Honestly, I didn't even think Madden 10 was good. In fact, I thought it was terrible. However, it was far better than the pile of crap they put out in the 4 iterations before it.

Can't say we completely agree or disagree - but that might just be the hyperbole. LOL

I've loved Madden since the first time I played and had to give up the sticks at 21-0. But Madden '06 didn't feel like Madden on any system. QB Vision, innovative as it was, just felt wrong for Madden on PS2 and NG Madden didn't feel like Madden at all. I often describe it with an analogy about a wife of many years coming home one day with a gender reassignment surprise. You might still care deeply for her well being, but you might not want to 'play' anymore. LOL

I won't say the devs are lazy or incompetent because I've met some of them. Most of them are passionate, hard working, and concerned about delivering a product each of us can be proud to buy, play, and enjoy.

But there are about 5-million of us. Satisfying 5-millon eaches is hard. Add that to the programming challenges inate to representing 11 intelligent football realistic collisions is virtually impossible. In fact, it's NEVER BEEN DONE. There have been games that pleased their clients, but their volume wasn't nearly as large. It's like Mac's vs PC's before Macs advertised. 5% of the market isn't going to complain like 95% will considering the 5% buy for specific reasons.

I've played both Head Coach games briefly and thought they were good games. Not my cup of tea, but they seemed great for people who aren't interested in controlling the on field action directly...

IMO, Madden has too much on the disc. Too broad a market to satisfy with only one game. Franchise used to be an Add-on mode, now it's graduated but a coach-only game isn't going to compete with Madden as long as a similar mode is on Madden with game-play included.

I'd love to see HC with a rudimentary 'gameplay' mode where players can control the action (coach mode is default) - with Madden's Franchise features getting the attention only a separate title can get. Add a play editor that can import custom plays to Madden for online play and I'd buy BOTH.

Madden on the other hand should be user-control heavy - with an optional coach mode.

But as long as Madden has a Franchise mode, HC will have dismal sales numbers. Maybe they should Market them as "Madden NFL" and "Madden Franchise" and "Madden Blitz" It would be a far better use of the exclusive license on the NFL and the use of Madden's name...

EA has tried to give us choices - their just too scared to upset the name recognition.

Later

[ryan36]

Why on earth would anyone buy a game with rudimentary gameplay?

[RogueHominid]

Quote: Originally Posted by ryan36

Why on earth would anyone buy a game with rudimentary gameplay?

The entire Tecmo series for the win! Also Blitz, but those were purchases from my younger days that I wouldn't make again.

On a serious note, I do think it's expecting too much to get 11 vs. 11 right. Just the OL/DL is a wild bonanza that's different every time.

[ryan36]

Quote: Originally Posted by Trojan Man

The entire Tecmo series for the win! Also Blitz, but those were purchases from my younger days that I wouldn't make again. On a serious note, I do think it's expecting too much to get 11 vs. 11 right. Just the OL/DL is a wild bonanza that's different every time.

I get what you're saying; I do. I just have seen better efforts from previous versions of this game. At least last gen